Lebanese crisis

[Scotracer]

As this is the first thread in the new sub-forum, I thought I should make it on the most talked about topic of late, the Lebanese-Isreali conflict.

I would love to hear what people from other countries have to say on this (also I was in France when it all began and I am not fully aware of all the goings-on).
Personally, I feel that Isreal is completely out of order on this, and has (as in the past, a la Palestine) been going rather over zealous with the force it uses to get it's point across or achieve it's goal. One of the main reasons for this I feel is that the US has made no attempt to call for a ceasefire, and has actually (according to the Isreali prime minister) promoted the use of force. Now there is a number of reasons for this; one of which is the large proportion of Jews in the US (which makes would put the government in hot water if it acted with force), so they are almost scared to act. Yes, many European countries have called for a ceasefire and the UN has declared Isreal's actions in direct violation of many humanitarian laws. Even with this, not much action will be taken until the US realises what is going on (as was stated yesterday on the BBC by a former US assistant secutary of the state, that the US government doesn't fully understand what is going on). Now, the US is completely disregarding the UN and European governments (not the first time either) and is choosing it's own path. This is not acceptable and the US has far too much power for it's own good.
This is not just a one sided argument. The Lebanese have been retaliating by firing rockets into Isreal, but this is just self-defence (which Isreal claims it is doing aswell!) and Isreal should stop before we have a full middle-eastern conflict on our hands.

Please, add your comments as this is a topic I feel strongly about.

[shane32Eire]

Personally I think its going to get worse before it gets better, The UN are taking measures now but I dont think they can do much. Isreal will not let it go that so many of their people have died including alot of soldiers. And Hezzbollah are as stern as ever.
It seems other countrys like Iran might start getting involved which can only mean the US will get involved.
Personally I think Isreal are in the wrong, Ive never liked how they dealt with Lebanon or with the problems in the Gaza strip/West Bank, they have always been too agressive and ruthless.
The only Reason the US arent involved is because Isreal have a very strong infulence in the States a worrying amount..
(only my opinion..)

[KH0RNE]

This is not acceptable and the US has far too much power for it's own good.


oh well what what can ya do? i mean it's not like anyone is going to try to stop us with force.

[Gameman54]

Um Scott, Grindstone deleted my thread on The Crisis in Mid East because he said his is a gaming site. He might delete this too.

[Scotracer]

oh well what what can ya do? i mean it's not like anyone is going to try to stop us with force.

KH0RNE, you are saying that like you are from some terrorist state and require someone to put your rein of terror to an end. I really hope that the US has the common sense (for the good of the world) that it can say the error of it's ways and at least listen to the UN. That was an arrogant post and unnecessary, read the rules before you post again. It certainly isn't helping the image of the US in other countries...

[shane32Eire]

KH0RNE Quote:

oh well what what can ya do? i mean it's not like anyone is going to try to stop us with force.

wow, Well thats a mature response this thread is for opinions and discussion of the 'facts', not nonsense replys.
Please dont turn it into a fight, back up your opinions with facts or strong feeling towards something..
otherwise the Mods will close it.

[cablekiller]

Israel is never going to have peace until their enemies are dealt with. They are facing the same kind of threats that we are in the US from terrorists. They hate us... they hate that we don't all believe in Allah, they hate our free society, our prosperity, and among countless other things. What no one seems to understand is that Israel's conflict is not with Lebanon, but with the militia group Hezbollah. UN Resolution 1559, passed in 2004, called for the disarming of the Hezbollah, but the Lebanese military has been unable to get it done, so Israel is going to do it for them to protect themselves from constant rocket fire into their cities. I can't say I blame them.

[shane32Eire]

Good point Cablekiller,
but is bombing Lebanon and killing countless civilians the way Isreal should deal with a threat they exagerate?
I think Isreal are a threat to that region they wont be happy till they have weak, useless, unarmed countrys all around them.

[cablekiller]

Good point Cablekiller,
but is bombing Lebanon and killing countless civilians the way Isreal should deal with a threat they exagerate?
I think Isreal are a threat to that region they wont be happy till they have weak, useless, unarmed countrys all around them.

I wouldn't be happy either if my country was surrounded by radical tyrants, and my people have been persecuted and slaughtered for nearly 5000 years. Israel gave a good deal of warning to the civilains in their target areas to evacuate. Civilian casualties are never good, but sometimes unavoidable. Sucks, but that's life.

[Scotracer]

Isreal has always been the same. But we (the UN included) has done very little, and just sat back and watch them take Palestine land and now this. They cannot be allowed to continue, and I believe that some sort of warning from the leading nations of the world should shock them enough to at least think about what they are doing and what could happen if the US or UK gets involved.

[Enola Bomber]

I wouldn't be happy either if my country was surrounded by radical tyrants, and my people have been persecuted and slaughtered for nearly 5000 years. Israel gave a good deal of warning to the civilains in their target areas to evacuate. Civilian casualties are never good, but sometimes unavoidable. Sucks, but that's life.

I agree with the fact that no country wants to be neighbored by terrorists or radicalists, but what i think he meant is that there must be a way to handle such a situation without risking civilians in the process. Responding with violence is only going to escalate the situation until its at a place where its more than just a conflict between the two. This is how bigger wars start, and I dont think now, or any time is a good time to start such a war. Tension is too high and I think the US stepping in will only aggrivate or provok the situation into becoming something we dont want. What about the innocent people who are involved/impacted by this that dont want to be? Is it fair to those people? The UN and all its joined Countries set rules that the US doesnt seem to ever want to follow, why no consequence for there actions against UN policy? I dont think if Germany or any other UN party broke UN policy they would get away with it as easy as the USA. Why do the US feel they have the right to overstep their boundaries all the time and wave their guns around where they shouldnt be? I dont understand their actions, but I believe there is another way to solve these problems, and it doesnt involve blowing them out of proportions.

[BRUTAL1TY]

I feel the USA will get involved but only if things escalate and it will only be a minimal involvement. I feel Israel is right in what they are doing. They feel threatened and they need to defend themselves now sure there has been civilian casualties but EVERY war has them. Also, ScotRacer wasnt the Palestinean land that Israel took over (which is Gaza), given to the Palestineans by Israel? I understand things have escalated quite a bit since the first soldier kidnapping and the Gaza invasion, but do you really think the UN can do much?? The UN IS worthless its a proven fact. The only way this will stop is if Israel and Hezbollah come to agreement on their terms, not by some BS ceasefire thing that the UN thinks will solve all world problems.

Now, I'm going to say this. I won't be the least bit damn surprised if Damascus is completely obliterated by Israel. To the point, of it not being a city at all. You may say I'm crazy but if things escalate my guess is that is part of the outcome.

Ok now everyone get ready for Gee or Grindstone to delete this thread... Perhaps we should ask Matt for a politics section

[shane32Eire]

Ok now everyone get ready for Gee or Grindstone to delete this thread... Perhaps we should ask Matt for a politics section
There is a new forum its allowed now! stop saying it!.

I agree with Scot completly and would be interested to see what other europeans say, its interesting that the Americans members seem to think what Isreal is doing is right.

When you say surrounded by tyrants and terroists:
1) just because you dont agree with there culture does NOT make them terroists.You are calling nations and cultures terroists just because ther US doesnt agree with their way of life.
And you can be sure these nations see the US as tyrants and terroists.
2) alot of the world including me see george bush as a tyrant.

And Isreal is a new country it used to be palenstine and the palenstines were hard done by the set up after WW2, and you can see why they have a right to fight for their deserved freedom.

[cablekiller]

Ok now everyone get ready for Gee or Grindstone to delete this thread... Perhaps we should ask Matt for a politics section

That's what this forum is for... debate of any kind, so as long as the maturity level stays up where it should, which it has so far, there shouldn't be any punishments from mods.


The UN and all its joined Countries set rules that the US doesnt seem to ever want to follow, why no consequence for there actions against UN policy?

The reason for this is because the UN has no real power without the US and the UK. Whenever a resolution is passed by the UN, whether it require military action or money, who gives the lives and fits the bill? The US and UK. Why? That's another debate all together.

[BRUTAL1TY]

There is a new forum its allowed now! stop saying it!.

I agree with Scot completly and would be interested to see what other europeans say, its interesting that the Americans members seem to think what Isreal is doing is right.

When you say surrounded by tyrants and terroists:
1) just because you dont agree with there culture does NOT make them terroists.You are calling nations and cultures terroists just because ther US doesnt agree with their way of life.
And you can be sure these nations see the US as tyrants and terroists.
2) alot of the world including me see george bush as a tyrant.

And Isreal is a new country it used to be palenstine and the palenstines were hard done by the set up after WW2, and you can see why they have a right to fight for their deserved freedom.

My apologies for not knowing we had a poltiics forum, I've been away for awhile, but you don't have to freak out on me...

Now you have your opinion, but I will say this. I get the sense, and I could be wrong, but I get the sense that you think the fight between Israel and Palestine is brand new, as if it wasnt happening 40 years ago. Sure Israel wasnt a nation till what was it, 1949 or something? But this is a battle between two brothers a long time ago. This goes much farther back than some land they owned around the 1940's. It goes back to Isaac (Jews) and Ishmael (Arabs) the sons of Abraham. This is a conflict that has continued between these two half brothers for 4,000 years. It won't end, it will only escalate.

Ok I veered off road there, back to the topic.

[Enola Bomber]

My apologies for not knowing we had a poltiics forum, I've been away for awhile, but you don't have to freak out on me...

Now you have your opinion, but I will say this. I get the sense, and I could be wrong, but I get the sense that you think the fight between Israel and Palestine is brand new, as if it wasnt happening 40 years ago. Sure Israel wasnt a nation till what was it, 1949 or something? But this is a battle between two brothers a long time ago. This goes much farther back than some land they owned around the 1940's. It goes back to Isaac (Jews) and Ishmael (Arabs) the sons of Abraham. This conflict that has continued between these two half brothers for 4,000 years. It won't end, it will only escalate

Think of this then. Say your brother and you are engaged in an ongoing grudge match that has been fairly subtle and not too big for your childhood. Then some stranger comes in and starts beating you up because he agrees with your brother. Thats what the US is doing and always has been doing to every other nation they feel fit to. They arent wanted there and by including themselves in the equation, it becomes a much bigger affair then a "family" problem.

[Comical]

IMO:

The U.S. cannot intrude in a raging battle without a purpose. Of course the U.S. is a country that believes in security, and helping the good, but until there is a brink of edge, I'm pretty sure there will be some consequences and actions the U.S. will bring on a maximum level. If "we" do decide to go into battle with these guys, we will need the congress's permission to stay in a longer battle, or the president will just send in troops for 90 days, ( correct me if I'm wrong. )

I'm pretty sure, the U.S. isn't just sitting back. We have to find solutions to solve this crisis. Now...With me not being affiliated with the presidents party ... I have my doubts that he will do the "right" thing, and if he does take actions, the situation will just get more horrific.

[cablekiller]

Now you have your opinion, but I will say this. I get the sense, and I could be wrong, but I get the sense that you think the fight between Israel and Palestine is brand new, as if it wasnt happening 40 years ago. Sure Israel wasnt a nation till what was it, 1949 or something? But this is a battle between two brothers a long time ago. This goes much farther back than some land they owned around the 1940's. It goes back to Isaac (Jews) and Ishmael (Arabs) the sons of Abraham. This is a conflict that has continued between these two half brothers for 4,000 years. It won't end, it will only escalate.


Exactly. The Palestinians are the remnants of the canaanites, philistines, etc. that occupied the countries(presently) of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and parts of Turkey. Moses and Aaron defeated these people, and led the Israelites into the promise land. Israel has given up much of this land to try and keep the peace, but it never works. This fight will never stop no matter how much US and UN involvement. The best we can do is delay the inevitable.

[BRUTAL1TY]

Think of this then. Say your brother and you are engaged in an ongoing grudge match that has been fairly subtle and not too big for your childhood. Then some stranger comes in and starts beating you up because he agrees with your brother. Thats what the US is doing and always has been doing to every other nation they feel fit to. They arent wanted there and by including themselves in the equation, it becomes a much bigger affair then a "family" problem.

I completely understand what you are saying and a great analogy btw Enola.
Now I really dont see anything wrong with what we are doing right now. I just dont, and that is not my American-born bias coming through there. Simply, the UN cant do crap, the Middle East sure will continue its fighting cuz it can never solve its own problems without bloodshed. So whose going to intervene and try and get their hands dirty and fix the situation?

Ok moving on. Now I don't mean to sound like a but you guys cannot count on the UN, erase them from the equation, ok. The UN simply cannot do things right. I mean if you cant get a ceasefire then what? Send in peacekeeper troops? Yeah that worked wonders for Rwanda. Again this will only be solved by Israel and its enemies alone.

[shane32Eire]

Im going have to stick up for the UN now, yes they dont do a whole lot some times, but you forget their not the US they cant go stamping there rules all over the world and they havent got the power the US has to start needless wars..
BUT they do 'peacekeeping' which is too help nations they have the right idead just not the desired strength, last time I checked the US does not do peacekeeping it just invades and destroys so called 'terroist' countries.

I am aware of the history of isreal and palestine so i do know what im talking about.

(brutality wasnt having a go at you, sorry)
(also not bashing US, just dont like americans bashing UN)

[BRUTAL1TY]

last time I checked the US... just invades and destroys so called 'terroist' countries.

:rolleyes: Do you honestly think Iraq isn't better off? Oh and name any other "terrorist" country the US has invaded, destroyed, and captured. Not hearing anything on that one. Iraq was not a terrorist country, but it sure didnt make things easier for the world to be less terrorized. PLus where did all those WMDs go? They were never real? Please... Syria has them, which brings me to my first post stating why Damascus might be destroyed. Israel will escalate things by messing with Syria, Syria then gets involved, things then get WORSE and Syria uses some WMDs and Israel is forced to nuke Damascus. That is just a thought from me as I am guessing the course of how things will happen.

[Enola Bomber]

My belief to the PROPER resolution this this problem and any other problem is to let the people involved sort it out themselves. IT has nothing to do with USA, it has nothing to do with the UN, and it has nothing to do with CANADA even. If we stepped in too, i wouldnt defend my country because i dont agree with whats happening. The problem is so much smaller when it doesnt involve other countries, and it is THEIR problem to solve, not ours. If USA or Canada had a civil war, would we like it if other people stepped in to sort it out? the problem would just get a hell of a lot bigger. This war is as close to a civil war as you can get, and we all should just step back, let them sort it out, and only step in if the problem actually starts involving us.

[BRUTAL1TY]

My belief to the PROPER resolution this this problem and any other problem is to let the people involved sort it out themselves. IT has nothing to do with USA, it has nothing to do with the UN, and it has nothing to do with CANADA even. If we stepped in too, i wouldnt defend my country because i dont agree with whats happening. The problem is so much smaller when it doesnt involve other countries, and it is THEIR problem to solve, not ours. If USA or Canada had a civil war, would we like it if other people stepped in to sort it out? the problem would just get a hell of a lot bigger. This war is as close to a civil war as you can get, and we all should just step back, let them sort it out, and only step in if the problem actually starts involving us.

That is the proper resolution. sadly, it wont happen. This world is blind.

[Enola Bomber]

Just a quick note. People said a political forum was a bad idea. I think this thread alone proved otherwise. People who are older and more educated seem to put up a good debate without going overboard. Its nice to see, and rarely do i see more posts on a thread in such less time. Thank you MATT for letting us have this.

[cablekiller]

Just a quick note. People said a political forum was a bad idea. I think this thread alone proved otherwise. People who are older and more educated seem to put up a good debate without going overboard. Its nice to see, and rarely do i see more posts on a thread in such less time. Thank you MATT for letting us have this.

Here here! :)

My belief to the PROPER resolution this this problem and any other problem is to let the people involved sort it out themselves. IT has nothing to do with USA, it has nothing to do with the UN, and it has nothing to do with CANADA even. If we stepped in too, i wouldnt defend my country because i dont agree with whats happening. The problem is so much smaller when it doesnt involve other countries, and it is THEIR problem to solve, not ours. If USA or Canada had a civil war, would we like it if other people stepped in to sort it out? the problem would just get a hell of a lot bigger. This war is as close to a civil war as you can get, and we all should just step back, let them sort it out, and only step in if the problem actually starts involving us.

I understand what you're saying, but if the US stepped out and didn't support Israel in this, I believe that would embolden other countries like, Iran and Syria, to involve themselves. It has already been proven that Iran is training and funding the Hezbollah militia against Israel State Sponsors: Iran - Council on Foreign Relations (http://www.cfr.org/publication/9362/) . It may be ugly now, but if the US said to hell with it, I believe it would be even uglier.

[warzin]

All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers. ~François Fénelon

Should we just leave them to it afterall it's their business?

But if one side has been armed to the teeth by another nation whose business is purely that - business then you have effectively determined the outcome. Should genocide in Rwanda be acceptable because it's people of similar ethnic history? There are no answers just bloodshed. Until we develop a UN that is united in more than words then every interference from outside the conflict has a selfish agenda. Be it Iran or US they don't care about the people but care greatly in causing harm to their perceived enemies.

Also note that Israel believes Iran and Syria to be their real enemies and know that they have proper armies and strong Arab support so it's easier to attack the Lebanon which almost doesn't have an official army. Iran and Syria support murder and Israel and the US support murder because from what I'm reading it's mainly civilians who are being bombed.

[Comical]

We all know the U.S. is going to get involve sooner or later. There is no resolution for eternal enemies. But there may be a slight increase of prosperity and temporary peace if this situation is solved according to both countries, which is not likely to happen.

The U.S. can be rather "inquisitive" with this situation and make a wrong choice if they decide to intrude. If this country gets bomb due to the presidential choice, the citizens, congress or whoever, better impeach the leader.

The U.S. isn't going to sit back and watch damage between to countries increase. We funded multiple countries to have them to be rebuilt under similar circumstances like the one that is currently occurring. There is no doubt that the U.S. will get involved, none-the-less.

[shane32Eire]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enola Bomber
Just a quick note. People said a political forum was a bad idea. I think this thread alone proved otherwise. People who are older and more educated seem to put up a good debate without going overboard. Its nice to see, and rarely do i see more posts on a thread in such less time. Thank you MATT for letting us have this.


Here here!

totally agree.

But i think the UN does have a right to get involved since there plan is on keeping civilians safe, and helping with red-cross and such..
By the way you need to be blind or naive to think that they'er were WMDs in Iraq when the US said so..

All i know is everyone i know and most people in northern europe think Isreal is in the wrong ive always heard Isreal bashing going on and only when i got old enough to actually know what was going on, i agreed completly.
They like i said are too agrresive they started this war and they intend to finish it which will be when lebanon is a wreck and like brutality said when syria get involved.
I hope the US stays out of it because it is none of their buisness unless they want too help with humanitarian needs. It will only get worse with US more guns/soldiers equals more deaths. And dont think the US arent already involved they gave isreal backing and are supplying them with arms.

[Scotracer]

All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers. ~François Fénelon

Should we just leave them to it afterall it's their business?

But if one side has been armed to the teeth by another nation whose business is purely that - business then you have effectively determined the outcome. Should genocide in Rwanda be acceptable because it's people of similar ethnic history? There are no answers just bloodshed. Until we develop a UN that is united in more than words then every interference from outside the conflict has a selfish agenda. Be it Iran or US they don't care about the people but care greatly in causing harm to their perceived enemies.

Also note that Israel believes Iran and Syria to be their real enemies and know that they have proper armies and strong Arab support so it's easier to attack the Lebanon which almost doesn't have an official army. Iran and Syria support murder and Israel and the US support murder because from what I'm reading it's mainly civilians who are being bombed.

I fully agree. Isreal has gone to such extremes because Lebanon really doesn't have an army. This does make it appear that Isreal are bombing only civilians because there is a lack of military targets. Because of the complete one-sided power in this conflict, I feel the UN must unite and actually force the major nations to do something (even though the US loves to disregard them).

I hope the US stays out of it because it is none of their buisness unless they want too help with humanitarian needs. It will only get worse with US more guns/soldiers equals more deaths. And dont think the US arent already involved they gave isreal backing and are supplying them with arms

Yes, I know of the US and the UK sending their navies to evactuate civilians (only US and UK people though). This could be used for humanitarian means also, which I feel is completely necessary, especially with the breach of UN law that Isreal is doing.

[Gee]

Just a quick note. People said a political forum was a bad idea. I think this thread alone proved otherwise. People who are older and more educated seem to put up a good debate without going overboard. Its nice to see, and rarely do i see more posts on a thread in such less time. Thank you MATT for letting us have this.

I just like to add that I'm pleased that everyone has shown the upmost respect of everyone's views on this subject,so let's keep it that way.
Also we have asked members not to flame other members in this section and this rule does extend to the shoutbox.
Also finally if anyone wishes to start a new thread on a totally different subject,then feel free to do so,it doesn't have to be something that is worldwide,it could be something that is happening in your part of the world.

[Enola Bomber]

For anyone who wants to join in on this topics but doesnt know or isnt aware of the situation, Comcast.net has frequently updated news on this. last update was 14 min ago.

[BRUTAL1TY]

But i think the UN does have a right to get involved since there plan is on keeping civilians safe, and helping with red-cross and such..
.

I completely agree that they should get involved with keeping civilians safe, I am just merely stating that their success rate isn't amazing when it comes to stabilizing conflicts. But anyways we kind of agree on something shane :tee:... REMARKABLE lol

[Jay2984]

The US will eventually get involved in this in some shape or form BUT what most of you dont realize, or maybe you do, is that when "we" do get involved in something like this we get bashed by some saying we are sticking our nose in other peoples business. On the other hand, when we dont the rest of the world is wondering where we are, where we stand and why arent we doing anything. Our reputation is very shaky right now with what has happened in Iraq and our government cant give terrorist groups anymore excuses to attack our people in this country and in other countries around the world. Its very sad what is happening between Israel and Lebanon, I hope it eventually gets worked out and a cease fire can be agreed upon.

[Glock 19]

I fully agree. Isreal has gone to such extremes because Lebanon really doesn't have an army. This does make it appear that Isreal are bombing only civilians because there is a lack of military targets. Because of the complete one-sided power in this conflict, I feel the UN must unite and actually force the major nations to do something (even though the US loves to disregard them).



Yes, I know of the US and the UK sending their navies to evactuate civilians (only US and UK people though). This could be used for humanitarian means also, which I feel is completely necessary, especially with the breach of UN law that Isreal is doing.
I think we should just stick to getting our people out. I was in Somalia in 1992-1993 with U.S. Marines we were doing humanitarian aid and all we did was get shot at, and lose people I don't think it is worth risking American lives or British lives as a situation like Lebannon can go bad quickly as Somalia did. Look for example the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983 We were there to help and lost a few hundred people in one bombing. Also my father was there in 1958 with the U.S. Marines also and the place was in kaos then so I don't think there is much anyone can do there anyway. You can't help people unless they help themselves first. So I just say get all of our people out and let them fight it out between themselves IMO.

[Enola Bomber]

I think we should just stick to getting our people out. I was in Somalia in 1992-1993 with U.S. Marines we were doing humanitarian aid and all we did was get shot at, and lose people I don't think it is worth risking American lives or British lives as a situation like Lebannon can go bad quickly as Somalia did. Look for example the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983 We were there to help and lost a few hundred people in one bombing. Also my father was there in 1958 with the U.S. Marines also and the place was in kaos then so I don't think there is much anyone can do there anyway. You can't help people unless they help themselves first. So I just say get all of our people out and let them fight it out between themselves IMO.

MY POINT EXACTLY

[Eazy_D]

Peacemaking is a hard, dangerous, and often thankless task. To deter people with guns, other people with more and bigger guns are necessary, and finding such people is not easy. It is one thing to expect a soldier to risk life and limb defending his or her homeland. It is another to expect that same soldier to travel halfway around the world and perhaps to die while trying to quell a struggle over diamonds, oil, or ethnic dominance on someone else's home turf. Most people are simply not that altruistic, especially when they see many intervention forces blamed for what such forces fail to accomplish rather than credited for the burdens they assume. As a result, the world is left with an international system of crisis response that is pragmatic, episodic, and incremental rather than principled, reliable, and decisive.

And the U.K. and U.S. are the people with the bigger guns. The UN is an essential part of worldwide peacekeeping and the sad thing is you dont get to hear about the work they do in such diverse places as Namibia, El Salvador, Cambodia, eastern Slavonia, Mozambique, and Cyprus. The traditional U.N. mission is a confidence-building exercise, conducted in strict neutrality between parties that seek international help in preserving or implementing peace. U.N. peacemaking, however, is quite another matter. The tragic experiences in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Somalia, and Rwanda showed that traditional U.N. peacekeepers lack the mandate, command structure, unity of purpose, and military might to succeed in the more urgent and nasty cases-where the fighting is hot, the innocent are dying, and the combatants oppose an international presence. Such weaknesses, sadly, are inherent in the voluntary and collective nature of the United Nations. When the going gets tough, the tough (U.K. and U.S) tend to go wherever they want, simply because the United Nations cant deal with such critical situations.

[korphaeron]

I'm damn sure if I was Palestinian I would do my best to kill the Israelites. They just took a patch of their land and the whole of the Middle East hates them.

What a coincedence, Israel is bacially USA, and they hate the USA as well!

[Drizzle]

I would like to post my views about this topic...

First of all, we all have to put on the shoes of both sides and try to be as fair and unbiased as possible. Im tired of people calling terrorists anybody who is against the US and/or Israel. Those people are trying to defend their country and families from illegal invasions and invadors. Since they dont have an army and/or resources to fight face to face, they use guerilla tactics. Not everybody in Palestine and Lebanon are terrorists, in fact they are good peaceful people, the bad guys are the brainwashed Islamic fanatics who are promised Heaven to attack the enemy.

Israel is illegally invading Palestine territory and controlling our media, and that is a fact. Israel is doing the same thing terrorists do to them, cause terror in an act of desperation because fighting highly trained guerilla man who are willing to die is hard. The fact that Israel bulldoze (sp?) homes, and ask for documents to move from one place to another is an act of terror. Another thing that I dont like is the excuses they give for the killing of civilians in the Lebanon, humans are not "collateral damage".

The UN is an essential part of worldwide peacekeeping and the sad thing is you dont get to hear about the work they do in such diverse places as Namibia, El Salvador, Cambodia, eastern Slavonia, Mozambique, and Cyprus.
My friend, the UN acts when the US and allies say so. Where was the UN when the genocide in Somalia occurred? Where was the UN when Ratko Mladić was doing all those acts of genocide? The UN is just a mask.

The US should excercise the Monroe Doctrine, and leave International organizations and the goverments fix their problems. I think they should try to work out their differences with Cuba, Bolivia, and Venezuela. Instead of threats and insults Amaerica (North, Central, South and the Carebean) should work together.

I think the US is trying to do something they tried on the 50s and 60s in Central America and Asia. That is, try to maintain political, economical, and military presence around the world, also known as imperialism. US wants to make allies with as many countries in the Middle East as they can so they are an important source of their economy, social, and military power. If the allies dont say or rebel against the US, they just simply stop the support...and that is a big hit to them. The US wants to control (is some way) an Islamic coalition of radical ideas and corrupt goverments.

The US cant go telling people to stop the nuclear programs since they have programs too. I think the world should give up their WMD.

[shane32Eire]

Well The problem is that Alot of the major powers back Isreal because they have much to lose, UK/US and France all back Isreal I think germany Is the only major European country against them, but lets not get into that.

Isreal Is surrounded by a continent of different religon and culture mostly Arab and they see these as a threat so they use their power(alot of which they get from US becasue we all know The US view torwards arabs)To stamp out anything they see as a threat, and being a far too agressive nation they see everything as 'terriosts'. People are saying Isreal is good towards palestinians they give them land.. Thats a load, Isreal Invaded Palestine territory in the late 60's including the west bank which was given to the palestinians when the 'new' Isreal was drawn up by nations that had no buisness in the middle east.

Anyway 'One man's Terroist is another man's Freedom Fighter'

[Eazy_D]

I would like to post my views about this topic...

First of all, we all have to put on the shoes of both sides and try to be as fair and unbiased as possible. Im tired of people calling terrorists anybody who is against the US and/or Israel. Those people are trying to defend their country and families from illegal invasions and invadors. Since they dont have an army and/or resources to fight face to face, they use guerilla tactics. Not everybody in Palestine and Lebanon are terrorists, in fact they are good peaceful people, the bad guys are the brainwashed Islamic fanatics who are promised Heaven to attack the enemy.

You cant just staple the word terrorist to anybody you feel like. and I feel that "terrorist" has become the buzz word of the international community. Nobody that I have heard of has called a group terrorists because they are against any country, state or religion.
Western media often labels groups or individuals "terrorist" when fighting for liberation, and the same people "statesmen" when they succeed in liberating their country. Two examples are Nobel Peace Prize laureates Menachem Begin and Nelson Mandela. States that are close allies, for reasons of culture or politics, can disagree over whether members of a certain organization are terrorists. For example, due to Irish-American lobbying efforts and several pro-PIRA Congressmen, some members of the United States government refused to label members of the PIRA as "terrorists", even though the IRA used violent methods against one of the United States' closest allies (Britain).

Unfortunately, this equivocal use of the term "terrorism" creates confusion as to the critical element of terrorism being the targetting of non-combatants.


Israel is illegally invading Palestine territory and controlling our media, and that is a fact.

Israel are (under the U.N. Charter) allowed to use millitary force as an act of self defence. I dont know enough about The U.N. Charter to go into extreme detail but ill put it how i can see it. If your one of your neighbours is throwing stones at your house but the garden fence is too high for you to see which one of your neighbours is throwing stones you climb the fence to find out and put a stop to it.

The UN is an essential part of worldwide peacekeeping and the sad thing is you dont get to hear about the work they do in such diverse places as Namibia, El Salvador, Cambodia, eastern Slavonia, Mozambique, and Cyprus.
My friend, the UN acts when the US and allies say so. Where was the UN when the genocide in Somalia occurred? Where was the UN when Ratko Mladić was doing all those acts of genocide? The UN is just a mask.


Are you going to back up that statement with facts? Because heres a question for you thats relevant. Where are the U.S./U.K./U.N./ to liberate Tibet From China? They were there to Liberate Kuait and the people of Iraq so why not Tibet? China states that Tibet belongs to them and not one country argues with them apart from the People of Tibet. 1.2 million people have died as a result of violence and other not natural causes since 1950 I call that Genocide. But China is too powerful Economically and Millitary too argue with.

[Drizzle]

Are you going to back up that statement with facts? Because heres a question for you thats relevant. Where are the U.S./U.K./U.N./ to liberate Tibet From China? They were there to Liberate Kuait and the people of Iraq so why not Tibet? China states that Tibet belongs to them and not one country argues with them apart from the People of Tibet. 1.2 million people have died as a result of violence and other not natural causes since 1950 I call that Genocide. But China is too powerful Economically and Millitary too argue with.
That is my point, what does the UN has to gain if they liberate Tibet from China? Tibet is a very small country/teritory, but China is a rising superpower...so they stay away.

Anyways I hope this all turn to good

[Scotracer]

Just an update on what has been happening today:

"Four United Nations peacekeepers have been killed in an Israeli air strike on an observation post in southern Lebanon, the UN has said.''

BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Israeli bomb kills UN observers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5215366.stm)

You think the UN can just do it's bit for humanitarian means now?

[CrAzYAmerican12]

I havent read every post in this thread, but here's what I have to say on the subject:

My opinion is that Isreal is in the right to do what they are doing. Hezbollah is just another terroist organisaztion that needs to be disamantled, peace by peace. If this means civilian casualties, thats unfortunate, but it needs to be done. Civilians by now have had warning to get out, and if they aren't getting out, well I don't know what to say to them. I for one am glad that the US isn't the only country right now that feels this way.

(By the way, how many civilians have been killed by Hezbollah rockets?? You will never know. The only thing you hear about now are the Lebonese getting killed now. Well Isreal is sick of it. Can't blame em if you ask me)

For those of you who are say the UN needs to do more-what do you want them to do? They called for the disarming of Hezbollah(sp). That hasn't happened, so why would anything else they do happen? If that had been done, then this might not be happening right now.

People who are saying Isreal is afraid to go to war with Syria or (forgot who else you said), I think you are wrong. Member something called the seven days war? Isreal defeated Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. Isreal can hold their own.

And Isreal must be doing something right-Previous to their millitary action, Isreal was having about 150 rockets fired at them a day. As of yesterday, it was 83. Sounds like progress to me.


I completely understand what you are saying and a great analogy btw Enola.
Now I really dont see anything wrong with what we are doing right now. I just dont, and that is not my American-born bias coming through there. Simply, the UN cant do crap, the Middle East sure will continue its fighting cuz it can never solve its own problems without bloodshed. So whose going to intervene and try and get their hands dirty and fix the situation?

Ok moving on. Now I don't mean to sound like a but you guys cannot count on the UN, erase them from the equation, ok. The UN simply cannot do things right. I mean if you cant get a ceasefire then what? Send in peacekeeper troops? Yeah that worked wonders for Rwanda. Again this will only be solved by Israel and its enemies alone.


Couldn't agree with you more.

Everyone bashing the US really pisses me off. What are we doing wrong this time?? We aren't sending troops, we aren't bombing, we haven't openly supported this (even though we should). We are sending 40 million dollars of aid to the Lebonese government....Oh, you expect the US to get everything done for you.

I realize this sounds a little defensive, and it is.

Personally, I can't wait for the downfall of Iran, North Korea, and Venezuella either. But No one but the US is going to do a thing about them.

[shane32Eire]

CrAzYAmerican12:

I havent read every post in this thread, but here's what I have to say on the subject:.......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .........
Personally, I can't wait for the downfall of Iran, North Korea, and Venezuella either. But No one but the US is going to do a thing about them.

Jesus!!
and you wonder why the US gets bashed? opinions like that are from people who dont have a clue of the outside world ,only what propaganda tells them: hes a terroist cause he doesnt do as i say, hes a terroist cause i dont like his culture...ect..

(And maybe if you read all the posts you might have shed some factual light on the subject.)

The war in middle east is a 99% one sided war that Isreal started. And noone is saying Isreal cant take syria.. we all know they can withbacking from US and other superpowers whats going to stop them commen sense, guilt for so many civilians killed? I doubt it its never stoped them before. How can you say Isreal is right to do it? it makes no sense, they Invaded they killed. Hezbollah are retaliating as Isreal knew they would and as any nation or army would.

Personally, I can't wait for the downfall of Iran, North Korea, and Venezuella either. But No one but the US is going to do a thing about them.

typical 'gun-ho' attitude they're free nations of the world, they have as much right to own Missiles and WMD or have a large army as the US do, or any other Nation.What gives you or your country the right to 'bring down' those goverments and countrys. Its called culture it differs, you might think its a 'threat' but only if your a naive fool.
And lets not forget the US gave most of these 'terroist' arab countrys the weapons and arms they have, during the cold war to counter a 'terroist commie nation'.

[Sorry to bash US like that but some of the above comments force me to respond.(and as always only my opinion)]

Of course you couldn't do it without insulting another culture all the while not supporting your claims with any sources. And then starting a two page flame war. Welcome to my **** list.
G-.

[Quiz]

Jesus!!
and you wonder why the US gets bashed? opinions like that are from people who dont have a clue of the outside world ,only what propaganda tells them: hes a terroist cause he doesnt do as i say, hes a terroist cause i dont like his culture...ect..

(And maybe if you read all the posts you might have shed some factual light on the subject.)

The war in middle east is a 99% one sided war that Isreal started. And noone is saying Isreal cant take syria.. we all know they can withbacking from US and other superpowers whats going to stop them commen sense, guilt for so many civilians killed? I doubt it its never stoped them before. How can you say Isreal is right to do it? it makes no sense, they Invaded they killed. Hezbollah are retaliating as Isreal knew they would and as any nation or army would.



typical 'gun-ho' attitude they're free nations of the world, they have as much right to own Missiles and WMD or have a large army as the US do, or any other Nation.What gives you or your country the right to 'bring down' those goverments and countrys. Its called culture it differs, you might think its a 'threat' but only if your a naive fool.
And lets not forget the US gave most of these 'terroist' arab countrys the weapons and arms they have, during the cold war to counter a 'terroist commie nation'.

[Sorry to bash US like that but some of the above comments force me to respond.(and as always only my opinion)]

Since when are people considered terrorists just because their culture is different. Since when do people over power someone else because of their culture, oh wait alquada and the Taliban who kill jews and christians.

[shane32Eire]

You have your views 'crazy'American and thats fine,im not going start a arguement.

But what buisness is it off yours or your countrys what a foreign country teaches there children. most Irish kids used to be brought up told of how evil England is and how they killed millions of us, and wrecked are country for hundreds of years, but noone complained cause we were a free country and it was none of there buisness.
And understand this every country in the middle east hates each other the history of that region is horrific, and peace is always on a knife edge but Isreal thinking its lead by God decided to start a war an start god knows what in the region its only going to get worse..

And I hope that Isreal gets pushed back and is shown they cant push and stamp on every arab country around them. it would make the world a better place, I have to say I think you are [...] if you think north-korea or anywhere else is more dangerous then Isreal. They know they will get away with murder so they will do it on mass porportions.

Edited for content.
G-.

[BRUTAL1TY]

Jesus!!
and you wonder why the US gets bashed? opinions like that are from people who dont have a clue of the outside world ,only what propaganda tells them: hes a terroist cause he doesnt do as i say, hes a terroist cause i dont like his culture...ect..

Propaganda???? Our press and media is so concerned with politics, with satisfying the left or satisfying the right, and arguing over who has the better policies that we wouldnt have a chance of airtime to have propaganda. We are not brainwashed or being influenced. Americans can make their decisions on their own and can identify a true terrorist between a fake one.

Also, Crazy american wasnt necessarily sayin he wants the nation to fall, he wants a regime change. Irans president IS a psychopath. He lies about diplomacy with us and continues to produce the tech for nukes. Yes a psychopath who believes the Holocaust never happened and ultimately wants the destruction of all Jews. The Venezualan president wants to ruin the US economy by messing with oil and by promising to team up with Iran. DO YOU SEE why Americans might be slightly angry at these countries? We dont want to bring the country down, we dont want to invade, we just want a regime change, a different head of government. We want positive diplomatic efforst by these countries, which are not happening.

typical 'gun-ho' attitude they're free nations of the world, they have as much right to own Missiles and WMD or have a large army as the US do, or any other Nation.What gives you or your country the right to 'bring down' those goverments and countrys. Its called culture it differs, you might think its a 'threat' but only if your a naive fool.
And lets not forget the US gave most of these 'terroist' arab countrys the weapons and arms they have, during the cold war to counter a 'terroist commie nation'.

[Sorry to bash US like that but some of the above comments force me to respond.(and as always only my opinion)]

Naive fool for thinking Iran and Venezuala are threats? Son of a... are you serious? I think we have a genius here ladies and gentlemen. Again Iran and NK are the biggest threats to this world.

Oh and what gives America the right to bring down governments and countries and to own all these weapons and yet say no one else can? Simply because we will not harm anyone unless forced by enemies. You dont see president bush saying "annihilate Israel" like Irans is. Iran will cause harm with their weapons, America doesnt. Simple as that.

Now also... America is and always will be a humanitarian country. When things go wrong, nations call for US help and support. Money is sent all around the world to help hurting countries. We send troops when nations need help and we send food when typhoons take out places like Indonesia. But of course, you dont believe me

[CrAzYAmerican12]

But what buisness is it off yours or your countrys what a foreign country teaches there children. most Irish kids used to be brought up told of how evil England is and how they killed millions of us, and wrecked are country for hundreds of years, but noone complained cause we were a free country and it was none of there buisness.

I don't see what you are saying here...are you justifing why its ok to lie? Because if thats what you are doing, you are immensly wrong. I don't normally say people's opinions are wrong, and I'm not doing so here, but you saying that lying is ok to to force their views into future generations is complete idiocracy and b/s.

And understand this every country in the middle east hates each other the history of that region is horrific, and peace is always on a knife edge but Isreal thinking its lead by God decided to start a war an start god knows what in the region its only going to get worse..

Are you saying Isreal was in no way provoked? If you are, well then you need to go read up on what has been happening to Isralies by Hezbollah.

And I hope that Isreal gets pushed back and is shown they cant push and stamp on every arab country around them. it would make the world a better place, I have to say I think you are a idiot if you think north-korea or anywhere else is more dangerous then Isreal. They know they will get away with murder so they will do it on mass porportions.

Um...Isreal is a responsible country. You make it sound like they are trying to create an empire by ruthlessly taking over and mass-genocide/murder. How is Isreal dangerous? Please answer that one question if not anything else. Because they are sick and tired or terrorism, and are trying to put an end to this cowardly and spineless acts of killing does not make them dangerous.

Tell me who wouldn't be tired of it?

Are you ok with terrorism?

[BRUTAL1TY]

This thread is beginning to depress me... [looks for some alcohol]

[BRUTAL1TY]

Are you saying Isreal was in no way provoked? If you are, well then you need to go read up on what has been happening to Isralies by Hezbollah.

Amen brother

[Scotracer]

Propaganda???? Our press and media is so concerned with politics, with satisfying the left or satisfying the right, and arguing over who has the better policies that we wouldnt have a chance of airtime to have propaganda. We are not brainwashed or being influenced. Americans can make their decisions on their own and can identify a true terrorist between a fake one.

I completely disagree. We get US media across here, and when compared to European sources, it is no comparison. The US media loves to use catchy terms ("WMD" and the like) which IS influencing peoples opinion. Even the US government themselves have little clue as to what is going on (as stated by a former US assistant secutary of state on the BBC).

Isreal needs to be stopped. They aren't acting just because of the Hezzbullah. They are acting with such force because they know that the US, the worlds most powerful nation is on it's side and very little will stop them. Look at the Gaza strip; Isreal first took Palestine and continually uses excess force against the rebels (Tanks vs. stones) and they are doing similar in Lebanon.

[shane32Eire]

Are you saying Isreal was in no way provoked? If you are, well then you need to go read up on what has been happening to Isralies by Hezbollah.
I was saying that any country in the region could be provoked into war if they wanted, I said they all hate each other and all have good reasons to go to war if they wish. Isreal have wanted to destroy lebanon and hezbollah for ages and used the 1 captured Isreal to do it, dont worry they would have found something else if they couldnt have used that.

I don't see what you are saying here...are you justifing why its ok to lie?
hmmm you seem confused, you understand that if something is said and you dont agree with it is not automaticly a lie? Yes every country exagerates the truth against a nation they hate. nowhere in my point was anything a lie.
I must have been dreaming when i saw the US invade Iraq and Afganastan and kill countless arab people, and i must be also be dreaming when every time bush is bull****ing he is clearly anti-arab and their religon, and always threating them....

[BRUTAL1TY]

I completely disagree. We get US media across here, and when compared to European sources, it is no comparison. The US media loves to use catchy terms ("WMD" and the like) which IS influencing peoples opinion. Even the US government themselves have little clue as to what is going on (as stated by a former US assistant secutary of state on the BBC).

Isreal needs to be stopped. They aren't acting just because of the Hezzbullah. They are acting with such force because they know that the US, the worlds most powerful nation is on it's side and very little will stop them. Look at the Gaza strip; Isreal first took Palestine and continually uses excess force against the rebels (Tanks vs. stones) and they are doing similar in Lebanon.

Well I hold true to what I say about the media, but what media do you get? FOX? CNN? There is some media outlets that I and other Americans choose to not watch because of its utter bias.

But in regards to Israel... Israel does not need to be stopped. What happens if a ceasefire occurs? Hezbollah wins! and Israel or any other anti-terrorist nation will be forced to battle with Hezbollah again 3 or 4 years from now, when its strength is back. Israel used excess force on Palestine yes, but it would have ended if the Israeli soldier was returned. No more bloodshed after that. Hamas and Hezbollah have brought this on themselves. In my opinion, Europe and other nations must have propaganda or some HEAVY agenda-setting in order to come to the conclusion that Israel in wrong doing. Sure Israel hit a UN spot and killed 4 ppl, but who's to say it wasnt a terrorist missile to direct attention of anger at Israel? Either way I dont know what to think of that, I'll have to wait for more news developments and research on it myself. I'll get back to everyone on that one.

[CrAzYAmerican12]

Your views just go to show you can't fix stupidity. Ok that was below the belt, but damn listen to yourself.

you understand that if something is said and you dont agree with it is not automaticly a lie? Yes every country exagerates the truth against a nation they hate. nowhere in my point was anything a lie.

I have told you before, I don't mind that people have differing viewpoints, but telling children that Americans and Isrealies drink the blood of Syrians and Lebonese is not exagerated. ITs completely made up. I don't recall drinking any blood of any kind lately. NO ONE HAS DONE THAT. So to say something is exagerated is one thing, to make something up is completely different.

Bush, by the way, isn't tricking anyone. We are able to make decisions and opinions of our own. You apperently think Bush tricked the US into war. Let me break it down for you. Simple version of what happened with Saddam(sp)

Saddam: I will not let UN inspectors in my country
US: Comply with the UN
Saddam: No
US: Show us what weapons you have
Saddam: No
US: Show us what you have
Saddam: No

We invade Iraq, and he wasn't hiding anything. Why he wouldn't show us that he didn't have anything?? Who knows...most likely b/c he thought Iraq would be more feared if ppl thought he had WMD. But he needed to be removed from power anyway. Musterd gassing your own people, keeping food from civilians, ruthless leadership....none of those are traits you want from a leader, er at least i don't.

[Scotracer]

I would never call Isreal as anti-terrorist. A terrorist nation is one that either promotes terrorism or actively is involved in it. What else would you call what has been happening on the West bank and the Gaza Strip? Just because it is a nations army that is killing Palestines, doesn't mean they aren't terrorists. Isreal has MASSIVE influence in the US, of course this will affect media (the government would never allow clear bashing of Isreal to occur). If there was alot propaganda in European countries, why would it be the nations leaders themselves be asking for a ceasefire?

We invade Iraq, and he wasn't hiding anything. Why he wouldn't show us that he didn't have anything?? Who knows...most likely b/c he thought Iraq would be more feared if ppl thought he had WMD. But he needed to be removed from power anyway. Musterd gassing your own people, keeping food from civilians, ruthless leadership....none of those are traits you want from a leader, er at least i don't.

I know where you are coming from, but you cannot enter another country, or remove someone from power because of this. You can only do this if it is harming other nations, or severly threatening them (which he wasn't). You may feel you are doing a greater good, but your input is not required. Saddam had just as much right to disregard the UN as the US has done, so take a look at yourself before you start claiming that a breach of UN law is a serious crime.

[CrAzYAmerican12]

I was saying that any country in the region could be provoked into war if they wanted, I said they all hate each other and all have good reasons to go to war if they wish.

So then why is it bad what Isreal is doing if you just told me they have good reasons to go to war??

At least you are not just saying Isreal launched some random attack for no reason now.

[BRUTAL1TY]

Your views just go to show you can't fix stupidity. Ok that was below the belt, but damn listen to yourself.



I have told you before, I don't mind that people have differing viewpoints, but telling children that Americans and Isrealies drink the blood of Syrians and Lebonese is not exagerated. ITs completely made up. I don't recall drinking any blood of any kind lately. NO ONE HAS DONE THAT. So to say something is exagerated is one thing, to make something up is completely different.

Bush, by the way, isn't tricking anyone. We are able to make decisions and opinions of our own. You apperently think Bush tricked the US into war. Let me break it down for you. Simple version of what happened with Saddam(sp)

Saddam: I will not let UN inspectors in my country
US: Comply with the UN
Saddam: No
US: Show us what weapons you have
Saddam: No
US: Show us what you have
Saddam: No

We invade Iraq, and he wasn't hiding anything. Why he wouldn't show us that he didn't have anything?? Who knows...most likely b/c he thought Iraq would be more feared if ppl thought he had WMD. But he needed to be removed from power anyway. Musterd gassing your own people, keeping food from civilians, ruthless leadership....none of those are traits you want from a leader, er at least i don't.

:congrats: I dont even have anything to add...

[Quiz]

I must have been dreaming when i saw the US invade Iraq and Afganastan and kill countless arab people, and i must be also dreaming when evry time bush is bull****ing he is clearly anti-arab and their religon and always threating them....

Since when were countless numbers of Arab people killed. you just sound like an anti-american. What evidence do you have that innocent Arab people were killed. Bush isn't anti Arabe or anti Musliim he is Anti Terrorist.

I also must have been dreaming when the world trade centers were hit. Now you know why we have a diferent view than you on the Arab. Now you know why we attacked Afganastan. Iraq was attacked cause we thought they had Nukes.

[BRUTAL1TY]

I would never call Isreal as anti-terrorist. A terrorist nation is one that either promotes terrorism or actively is involved in it. What else would you call what has been happening on the West bank and the Gaza Strip? Just because it is a nations army that is killing Palestines, doesn't mean they aren't terrorists. Isreal has MASSIVE influence in the US, of course this will affect media (the government would never allow clear bashing of Isreal to occur). If there was alot propaganda in European countries, why would it be the nations leaders themselves be asking for a ceasefire?

Well I'll say this... You say the government would never allow clear bashing of Israel in the media, but... The media consistently bashes Bush himself whether its right or wrong. You dont see Bush telling the media to leave him alone? Sure the government went after the NY Times but that is desreved. Plus I am watching the news right now and it is 50/50. There is support for Israel and there is negativity towards Israel. The government does not control the media, we have freedom of press. Its in our bill of rights, but wait your not a citizen.

And when I said propaganda in europe I ment anti-Israel propaganda. Not pro...

[Drizzle]

A country that has Kim Jong II as their leader has no right to own any kind of weapons. A country tests missles over Japan's airspace shows that they do not need, nor are responsible enough to be in possession of one.
Any country, regardless of their social/economical status, should have weapons. North Korea has never invaded Japan's airspace, they test their missiles on international waters. The US test their "technology" on Puerto Rico, and the people there dont have the right to say a thing.


Can you seriously tell me that North Korea and Iran both should be in possession of WMD? What gives anyone the right to 'bring down' these governments is that they have phsycotic nut jobs running their countries.
No country should have nukes. (period) We have a nut job called Bush, along with Rumsfield, Cheney, and all the political gang. Backed up by brainwashed Americans, they spend more money on their military than education and healthcare system.


I have no problem with other people's cultures, but when these cultures include suicide bombing, teaching falsities to their youth, and encouraging the death of innocent people who do not agree with their views, I do have a problem.

A huge reason I don't care for the some of the mid-east is that they are very intolorent of other people's views. And they are willing to kill innocent people to force what they believe on everyone else.

[...] American who thinks the Middle East teaches their childrens about killing, you are VERY wrong. Islams condemned the killing of anybody.Terrorists are brainwashed by Islamic militants that have the wrong views of their religion.

This reminds me of the Cold War, when Americans and Soviets were brainwashed with propaganda about each other. When Americans thought the Soviets were all about making nukes.

Edited for content.
-G.

[Scotracer]

Then according to you, Saddam should still be in power. Would that be accurate if I said that? I disagree, and support the war full heartedly.

It's not a breach of a serious crime. The UN is really a worthless organazation. They have no power. What would have been a serious crime was allowing Saddam to have possession of WMD. He has no reason for one, and he had no reason to be in power.

People talk about how they are sick of the US being a world 'watch dog', but yet now they want the US to step in and stop Isreal. What do you want then. You want US to get involved in affairs, or not?

Saddam shouldn't be in power, he is a tyrant, but the way the US (and I admit the UK) went about it was completely wrong. The amount of force used was obsurd (remember, shock and awe) and this most likely could have been resolved another way.

So, if Saddam had no reason for owning nuclear weapons, what reason does any other country have? Self-defense? So, now Iraq has no right to defend itself from other.

The UN has no power, which is completely wrong, it should have power over all nations and be able to enforce laws. As I have stated before, the US just has too much power and the UN has barely any influence on it.

''With great power comes great responsibility'' is the old phrase, and it certainly relevant to the US. The US should remain a watchdog; there just in case any large aid/force is necessary to keep the peace in any region of the world. What it is doing is unjust and completely unnecessary as it goes around policing the world.

This is where the UN should be acting. All the major nations of the world should have major talks on any particular problem and work out a relevant solution instead of the usual one nation going in and causing more problems/blood-shed. USA has the largest influence in Isreal, it should act in light of this but it is afraid too because of the large proportian of Jews in the USA.

[BRUTAL1TY]

Iraq had just as much right to bare arms as the US. Who says if Iraq had nuclear weapons, or other WMD's, it would use them against other nations. If I count correctly, the US has attacked more nations than Iraq ever has, so why is the US allowed to stockpile them?

Oh come on now... the US has attacked other nations but never without provocation. The US is a friendly country that does not use its weapons, period. When was the last time we fired a nuke at a nation? Oh yeah WWII over 50 years ago. Iraq would have used WMDs and Iraq would have been a grave threat to the world, just like Iran and NK is becoming. You need to understand something, that Bush is not some rutheless dicator like everyone seems to think. Imanutjob or Irans president and Kim Jung Mentally-Ill are people that should not, REPEAT should not have nuclear capabilities. Its just not smart for the world and peace. Even if they didnt attack countries with the weapons, they sure as sh** would pull their weight around because they have them. The world is heading towards WWIII whether you believe it or not and Israel is not the problem

[CrAzYAmerican12]

No, the US isn't afraid of a backlash. We arent acting like you would like us too b/c we agree with what is going on (although not openly stated). Why interupt something you agree with?

Syria, Iran, and Hezbollah are all in cahoots together, and they are all dangeous to the rest of the world.

Iran and Syria supply Hezbollah. Why? Well they hate Isreal. Who better to support than your enemy's enemy. Iran has always said that they need a nucular weapon to protect themselves against Isreal. I think they used Hezbollah as a perfect excuse to have a WMD, and they shouldn't have one.

And to whomever is saying that no one should have nukes. Yeah, your probably right that everyone would be better off without them. But the fact of the matter is that they are out there. And to use the logic that if one nation has one, everyone should have one is sheer stupidity. As you are saying that the US's large influence in the world, it should be used to keep dangerous leaders away from WMD, probably more-so than anything else.

[Jay2984]

I dont understand why some of you are letting your anti-american thinking into this thread. This was supposed to be about Israel and Lebanon not what America is doing wrong and our "gun-ho" attitudes. What do you guys want us to do, honestly????? We have nothing to lose by backing or condemning what Israel is doing, maybe this time its good for us to sit back and let them fight it out themselves so in a month or so you guys cant come back and complain about what we did wrong with handling that situatiion.

If we are so anti-arab why do we pump so much money into the middle east, and the rest of the world, trying to help these countries that need it? Its sad that you guys think you can make the US look like such an evil power when we have done a lot of good for the world. Do you guys remember either of the World Wars??? If it wasnt for us helping YOUR countries, you would be speaking German right now singing a song to a picture of Hitler every morning before school starts. I see its so easy to forget about the good things we have done. We dont hate anyone unless they have done something to affect us directly or being a possible threat to us or our allies.

Shane, bringing up Afghanistan was just plain ignorant. They were harboring terrorists, yes actual terrorists and we didnt make it up, that came onto our soil and killed thousands of our civialians. You guys are just using the same kind of thinking that you are complaining about, you have been brainwashed about how bad the US is and we are all evil who use our weapons before actually thinking which is just ridiculous.

[CrAzYAmerican12]

I dont understand why some of you are letting your anti-american thinking into this thread. This was supposed to be about Israel and Lebanon not what America is doing wrong and our "gun-ho" attitudes. What do you guys want us to do, honestly????? We have nothing to lose by backing or condemning what Israel is doing, maybe this time its good for us to sit back and let them fight it out themselves so in a month or so you guys cant come back and complain about what we did wrong with handling that situatiion.

If we are so anti-arab why do we pump so much money into the middle east, and the rest of the world, trying to help these countries that need it? Its sad that you guys think you can make the US look like such an evil power when we have done a lot of good for the world. Do you guys remember either of the World Wars??? If it wasnt for us helping YOUR countries, you would be speaking German right now singing a song to a picture of Hitler every morning before school starts. I see its so easy to forget about the good things we have done. We dont hate anyone unless they have done something to affect us directly or being a possible threat to us or our allies.

Shane, bringing up Afghanistan was just plain ignorant. They were harboring terrorists, yes actual terrorists and we didnt make it up, that came onto our soil and killed thousands of our civialians. You guys are just using the same kind of thinking that you are complaining about, you have been brainwashed about how bad the US is and we are all evil who use our weapons before actually thinking which is just ridiculous.

Brilliance!!:top:

[BRUTAL1TY]

*sigh* Unbelievable just unbelievable

Also just to let you know, I am doing what my avatar is doing, right now. Ouch.. [finds some Tylenol]

[CrAzYAmerican12]

Thats because you kept on with the pro-US.
And im pretty sure there were investigations by UN and private Irish consul that they were 100% sure of torture, but The US can cover up things pretty well. It must have just been me who saw those pics of tortured prisoners last year.



Well it happens to be important over here, another problem the US isnt bothered about, just throwing it weight around as usual.
And im anti US goverment, not the people. theres gun-ho rednecks that are as bad as the goverment but otherwize i like the american people.

And just to let you know everyone i know feels the same way..

Here, let me make up a story real quick.....

I'm done talking to you, you can't argue with stupidity.

[Jay2984]

Shane man that was definately uncalled for, no other person on this thread resorted to name calling to the extent you took it. A post like this will be the reason Matt shuts down the mass debate category. I dont know what you expected out of Americans who read most of your posts, we will defend our country just like you would.


Edited for quote content

[BRUTAL1TY]

Shane man that was definately uncalled for, no other person on this thread resorted to name calling to the extent you took it. A post like this will be the reason Matt shuts down the mass debate category. I dont know what you expected out of Americans who read most of your posts, we will defend our country just like you would.

Well said man... :beer:

[Grindstone]

Grrrrr! And this is why I opposed this forum to begin with. Not only has it degraded to name-calling, but you can't even stay on topic.

IF YOU HAVE A NEW TOPIC, MAKE A FRIGGIN' NEW THREAD! I am about ready to ban you all and let God sort it out (i.e., Matt). This is your last cordial warning. Be professional, be cordial, and be informed before you post your opinion.

EDIT:

I remove a facetious comment that undermined the severity I was hoping to convey. The following posts were deleted as they missed my meesage. STAY ON TOPIC OR MAKE A NEW ONE.

EDIT 2:

Thank you gentlemen, I just spent my evening editing your lousy posts. Sorry if there are some that I overlooked. A reminder would be that this is a thread about the Israeli/Hezbollah conflict. If you have issues to my moderating, feel free to appeal to Matt. I don't care if you are from the US, UK or UFO, you will respect each other.

[Eazy_D]

First off CrazyAmerican I havent seen anyone back up thier argument with facts and figures, lets face it a lot of the things that are going to be posted on here will be fuelled by Media or speculation. I'll do my best to back up my posts with facts based on mutiple sources on the web and i suggest you do the same. BTW I'm not flaming you when I say this but you are posting like a bigot thats intolerent of opinions lifestyles or identities that differ from your own. A lot of people have been sucked in by the Medias constant fear mongering its no wonder people find it hard to form thier own opinions and learn to understand the broader scope of things. I myself find it hard not to get trapped by the media frenzy.

Anyway please people stop and think before posting abusive or provocative replys. If someone doesent agree with you just stand by your argument and drop it.

[Eazy_D]

Right back on topic.

America, China and the U.K. have supplied Israel with the Arms they need to defend themselves against hostile forces. Since President Truman recognized the state of Israel in 1948, the United States has been Israel's most supportive ally. Since 1950, the United States has provided more than $46 billion dollars in grant military aid to Israel, a sum that outstrips military aid to Egypt, America' s next largest beneficiary, by at least $20 billion. Israel has also received many billions more in grant 'economic' aid, loans for military purchases, and used American armaments.
The U.S. now has a responsibility to Israel. I say that because it wont be long before Israel is Invaded by a coallition of middle eastern countrys and then all hell will break loose.
I'd say thats why there are allied war ships still in the Gulf.

[BRUTAL1TY]

Now that I have had some Mass Debate withdrawal and some sobering up, Im back and ready to maturely discuss Israel and Hezbollah's war

First off.. Good points Eazy D...

Now Russia may even be involved in this fight. Not militarily or anything but this shows that perhaps Russia has been in cahoots with some not so respectable countries

Gulfnews: Moscow asks Damascus to limit response if attacked (http://www.gulfnews.com/region/Lebanon/10055169.html)

Lebanon
Published: 07/26/2006 12:00 AM (UAE)
Moscow asks Damascus to limit response if attacked
Reuters

Damascus: Moscow has asked Syria not to use Russian missiles to retaliate if attacked by Israel, diplomats said yesterday.

Deputy Russian Foreign Minister Alexander Saltanov delivered the message to senior Syrian officials in Damascus last week, as the risk of Israel's Lebanese offensive expanding into a regional war rose, the diplomats said.

"Saltanov told them Syria can use Russian anti-aircraft missiles to thwart Israeli air attacks, but that Russia objected to using Russian Scuds to retaliate," one diplomat, who did not want to be identified, said.

"The Russians don't want their missiles to hit Israeli cities. Syria, however, has more advanced North Korean missiles," another diplomat said.

Syria, which relied on Russia for military supplies during the 1970s and 80s, has diversified its arsenal in recent years to include Chinese and North Korean weapons.

Diplomats say Syria has a formidable stock of surface-to-surface missiles that can hit deep into Israel, plus an array of Russian surface-to-air batteries.

Although no longer as close to Syria as during the Soviet era, Russia has called for a ceasefire in Lebanon and said Israeli attacks went beyond an anti-Hezbollah operation."



This shows to me two things... A) Putin is trying to cover his tracks and B) Syria may get involved which will only make things worse...

[BRUTAL1TY]

Also...

MEMRI: Ahmadinejad: Lebanon Will Determine the Future of Humanity

Tuesday, July 25, 2006

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: "In my opinion, Lebanon is the scene of an historic test, which will determine the future of humanity. Everyone must be put to the test. Everyone. It is inconceivable for anyone who calls himself a Muslim and who heads an Islamic state to maintain relations under the table with the regime that occupied Jerusalem. He cannot take pleasure in the [Israeli] killing of Muslims yet present himself as a Muslim. This is inconceivable, and must be exposed. Allah willing, it will. You will see."


Cont'd... (http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=30279)

This is not good at all. Ahmadinejad only wants one thing, the destruction of Israel. Some can disagree with me on whether or not Israel is in the wrong, but for the destruction? Iran's President doesnt even believe the Holocaust occurred. This is bad folks, bad... and he is only tryin to hasten an inevitable war between Israel and its neighboring countries... Look out folks cuz things are probably going to heat up

[BRUTAL1TY]

Ok I hate to triple post but at least I'm showing something of worth...

Here's some more..

Hezbollah Vows Rockets Deeper Into Israel

By SAM GHATTAS
The Associated Press
Tuesday, July 25, 2006; 6:43 PM



BEIRUT, Lebanon -- Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah vowed Wednesday that his fighters would now begin firing rockets deeper into Israel, beyond the northern port city of Haifa which has suffered under hundreds of Hezbollah barrages.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...501202_pf.html

This may not be that big of a deal, cuz most of the time Hezbollah says something and does another, but if they go very deep into Israel say Tel-Aviv then can you say boom?

Allright guys and gals I'm out for the night... My apologies Grindstone, Matt and to any other mods for my previous behavior. I just got riled up and had some trouble keeping my mouth shut. Next time I'll be better!

[oli]

well this whole thing is messed up , have you seen the new from the other day Israel hitting two ambulances trying to rescue and help people from a shelled building if im right in saying this that is against the rules of war..

[Eazy_D]

America and western Europe are facing thier biggest crisis since WWII. If the situation in the Middle East is not resolved Israel may well strike at Iranian nuclear facilities.
Israel has proposed to the United States to strike Iran on several occasions this year.

According to a report, the latest proposal was raised during the Knesset Defense and Foreign Affairs Committee’s visit to Washington several days ago, where Committee members apparently attempted to “market one agenda: Launching a war on Iran.”

The newspaper quoted Knesset Member Arieh Eldad saying that “nothing will restrain Iran aside from the use of force” and adding that Teheran’s nuclear project will not end “unless it is convinced it will be destroyed through military force.”

Meanwhile, Knesset Member Yosef Lapid reportedly said threats of sanctions and isolation have no effect on Iran.

“We won’t accept the fact we need to live under the threat of an Iranian nuclear bomb and therefore we feel we should warn our friends we don’t see any solution except for acting on our own,” Lapid said according to the Saudi report.

Israeli deadline

The newspaper says this was not the first time Israel demanded to strike Iran. President Bush rejected Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s offer
to use military force during the latter’s latest visit to Washington, the report said.

Sharon reportedly presented Bush with satellite photos of Iran’s nuclear facilities and asked to attack them. The president apparently “coldly” referred him to U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who told the PM the U.S. chose to pursue the diplomatic channel, in conjunction with European states, to resolve the problem.

Earlier reports said Sharon informed Washington in a special letter that Iranian nuclear arms would threaten the safety of Israelis more than any other nation. The PM reportedly said Israel would consider postponing military action against Teheran out of consideration for the U.S., but added Israel would not “wait forever.”

According to al-Watan, Israel made it clear that it would only be able to wait until a certain date next year and would strike at Iran if no progress is made by that time.

Haddad Adel warned that if Israel ventured to attack Iran's nuclear facilities it would incur severe retaliation.

"If Israel takes such crazy actions as attacking our nuclear facilities, we will give it an unforgettable lesson," Adel told a press conference after meeting with his Syrian counterpart Mahmoud Abrash.

Adel also strongly opposed to refer its nuclear issue to the United Nations Security Council.

A member of Adel's delegation, who asked not to be named, told Xinhua that Syrian President Bashar al-Assad had expressed support to Tehran's right for peaceful use of nuclear energy when meeting with Adel earlier in the day.

Assad also criticized some western countries which maintain silence on Israel's buildup of its nuclear capacities while making no tolerance towards Iran, said the official.

Syria's official SANA news agency reported that Assad had discussed with Adel "the relations of friendship and cooperation between the two countries".

Adel said upon arrival in Damascus Saturday that he would seek coordination with the Syrian side to deal with the external pressure the two countries both suffered from the western countries.

Both Iran and Syria have been under US sanctions as Washington has accused them of supporting Palestinian terror groups and Lebanon's anti-Israeli armed movement Hizbullah.

Washington also accused Iran of seeking to build nuclear bombs and Syria of allowing insurgents to cross into Iraq, which has been denied by Tehran and Damascus.

If Israel decides to attack Iran I have no doubt that Syria and Egypt will attack Israel. Iran will Counter with WMDs Western coallition forces strike Iran. Western Forces will be over streched, North Korea Re-Take the South from American Control while they are bogged down in the middle east. China could start a conflict in Taiwan And China North Korea and Russia wiill Block any Interference in Asia which could lead to a global catastrophe.

THATS THE WORST POSSIBLE SCENARIO!

[Eazy_D]

well this whole thing is messed up , have you seen the new from the other day Israel hitting two ambulances trying to rescue and help people from a shelled building if im right in saying this that is against the rules of war..

Israel are going too far. They are deliberately striking Civillian targets.

[oli]

exactly, i would not be suprised if soon other countries start getting involved , and then there is a risk of nuclear strikes so on this could really get out of hand..

[shane32Eire]

Various Quotes from FACTual papers/websites.

"Despite bitter lessons from the past, Israel's political and military leaders remain addicted to the notion that, whatever they have a right to do, they have a right to overdo.....assault across its northern border into Lebanon, far from providing protection to its citizens, may well further undermine their security by destabilizing the wider region."

"Iraq is destroyed, Afghanistan is destroyed, the Gaza Strip is destroyed and soon Beirut will be destroyed for the umpteenth time, and hundreds of billions of dollars are being invested solely in the vain war against the side that always loses and therefore has nothing more to lose.

"Maybe the time has come to put the pistol into safety mode for a moment, and back into the holster.

:congrats: :congrats: :congrats:


''Israeli rabbis say killing enemy civilians during war is 'normal'
The rabbis quoted a Talmudic edict, or religious ruling, stating that "our lives come first".
"The Christian preaching of 'turning the other cheek' doesn't concern us, and we will not be impressed by those who prefer the lives of our enemies to our lives," they said.
....called Israel's government a "regime based on evil,"
Hmmm

[Scotracer]

Thank you shane for finding that information to back up what I have been saying all along.

Further developments in the UN peace-keeper deaths:

Kofi Annan has declared these as completely unacceptible as the UN officials were in clearly marked civilian areas, this rules out the chance of them being accidental. Isreal is pushing the limits here, and still a US lead coalition force is no-where to be seen. If this was any other country, I am sure we would have forces in just now sorting out this mess.

[Enola Bomber]

What is going on with this thread. Drizzle posted some pics and hardcore facts that a MOD removed for some reason. Why? He didnt say anything wrong or something, why did a MOD delete it? It seems like this thread is being corupted like the governments involved in this discussion. And why was my posts deleted as well? There was so much flaming going on in here and I requested to close it and THAT post got deleted??? This is crazy.

[BRUTAL1TY]

I disagree I do not think the hit on the UN post was on purpose. Those UN peacekeepers were very close to the action and accidents happen. I think Annan knows it was not purposeful but is saying it anyways to sway Israel to give into a ceasefire...

Israeli Airstrike in Lebanon Kills Two UN Peacekeepers, Two Missing (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,205549,00.html)

Wednesday, July 26, 2006
FOX News

NABATIYEH, Lebanon — Prime Minister Ehud Olmert expressed "deep regret" Wednesday over the killing of at least three U.N. peacekeepers in an Israeli airstrike in south Lebanon.

Olmert spoke by phone Wednesday to U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan, who had termed the airstrike as "apparently deliberate."

Olmert said the peacekeepers were killed mistakenly and expressed dismay over Annan's accusation, according to a statement by Olmert's office. The prime minister promised a thorough investigation and said the results would be presented to Annan...

Cont'd... (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,205549,00.html)

Also Israel is not a "regime based on evil'. That is pure lies and I'm not going to argue about that anymore only because I'll get too pissed, but its disheartening for me to hear people believe that...

[Grindstone]

What is going on with this thread. Drizzle posted some pics and hardcore facts that a MOD removed for some reason. Why? He didnt say anything wrong or something, why did a MOD delete it? It seems like this thread is being corupted like the governments involved in this discussion. And why was my posts deleted as well? There was so much flaming going on in here and I requested to close it and THAT post got deleted??? This is crazy.

Remember you are a guest here at PX360 and as such, you will obey the rules posted by Matt. Read them again if forgot the rules. I enforce them.

Drizzle posted pictures of Iraqi prisoners relating to torture. Please cite, if you can, anything ScotRacer mentioned about POWs, torture and Iraq in his initial post for the thread topic. Feel free to make a thread about POWs, torture and Iraq if you so desire. But they will not be put into a thread about Israel and Hezbollah -- same goes for any other side topic not relevant to the discussion.

And shane, your quote was about as salient as my quote:

I can make up whatever I want to and pass it off as fact; so please, leave a source link so we can all determine what is "FACTual", as there are plently of left and right-winged websites out there.

[Enola Bomber]

Remember you are a guest here at PX360 and as such, you will obey the rules posted by Matt. Read them again if forgot the rules. I enforce them.

Drizzle posted pictures of Iraqi prisoners relating to torture. Please cite, if you can, anything ScotRacer mentioned about POWs, torture and Iraq in his initial post for the thread topic. Feel free to make a thread about POWs, torture and Iraq if you so desire. But they will not be put into a thread about Israel and Hezbollah -- same goes for any other side topic not relevant to the discussion.

:

O.k, thats fine, but i didnt post them. Why was my post deleted requesting someone to close this thread FOR being off topic. The thread turned into a flame war, which started off very nicely i might add before crazyamerican stepped into the debate. Why werent those posts deleted? They were going on about stuff for a while, and everyone turned on poor shane and they were saying he had no proof of what he was saying. Drizzle posted proof, and it got deleted along with my posts but no one elses were touch making this thread pretty one sided now. All i asked is to close this thread. The topic has been over discussed and argued about, and there is no point in continuing it if one side is just going to get deleted.

[Grindstone]

The thread will not be closed until either ScotRacer asks for its closure, or the Mods come to a consensus that this should be closed. At this point, since I seem to be alone for monitering this forum, a consensus may be awhile.

As for one sided, it would seem ScotRacer, yourself, and shane are doing fine.

I deleted the posts that were the most inflammatory and/or off topic. I'll continue to do so throughout the day until this thread is back on track.

[shane32Eire]

And shane, your quote was about as salient as my quote:

Quote:
I can make up whatever I want to and pass it off as fact; so please, leave a source link so we can all determine what is "FACTual", as there are plently of left and right-winged websites out there.

I will find the links grind, i was looking at alot of pages at the time and forgot the links and pages. But you can be sure I didnt make them up. I dont agree with you,but im not sad!

[salgado]

The USA cannot stop this 4,000 year old war, Even if we had 100 countrys in this planet with the same military power the USA has they wouldnt be able to stop this war, This world will end untill one of the two sides is wiped out of this planet meaning the christians or the Islamics . The rest of the world sees this as just a war but the Islamic nations and Israel see this as a holy war Islam vs Christianity so I feel religion is the only thing we can blame for this war. May God protect the innocent children of the region from this war, we humans dont learn that nothing good has ever come out of a war

[pApA SmerF01]

The USA cannot stop this 4,000 year old war, Even if we had 100 countrys in this planet with the same military power the USA has they wouldnt be able to stop this war, This world will end untill one of the two sides is wiped out of this planet meaning the christians or the Islamics . The rest of the world sees this as just a war but the Islamic nations and Israel see this as a holy war Islam vs Christianity so I feel religion is the only thing we can blame for this war. May God protect the innocent children of the region from this war, we humans dont learn that nothing good has ever come out of a war

...wait...i could have SWORN that Israel was a Jewish community...I guess I was mistaken...

...Not...

[salgado]

Judaism is a form of christianity

[pApA SmerF01]

Judaism is a form of christianity

i'm sorry, but i have to disagree with you on that subject.

christian (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Christian)

Main Entry: 1Chris·tian
Pronunciation: 'kris-ch&n, 'krish-
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin christianus, adjective & noun, from Greek christianos, from Christos
1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ b (1) : DISCIPLE 2 (2) : a member of one of the Churches of Christ separating from the Disciples of Christ in 1906 (3) : a member of the Christian denomination having part in the union of the United Church of Christ concluded in 1961
2 : the hero in Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress

judaism (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/judaism)

Main Entry: Ju·da·ism
Pronunciation: 'jü-dE-"i-z&m, 'jü-d&-, 'jü-(")dA-, Britain also 'jü-"di-z&m
Function: noun
1 : a religion developed among the ancient Hebrews and characterized by belief in one transcendent God who has revealed himself to Abraham, Moses, and the Hebrew prophets and by a religious life in accordance with Scriptures and rabbinic traditions
2 : conformity to Jewish rites, ceremonies, and practices
3 : the cultural, social, and religious beliefs and practices of the Jews
4 : the whole body of Jews : the Jewish people

[Enola Bomber]

Its true. They arent the same, or even close really. (why do you think jewish people dont celebrate christian holidays like the birth of christ (the very same christ from the title "christ-ianity") DIDNT YOU WATCH THE PASSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol.

[CrAzYAmerican12]

I think Salgado brings up a very good point. These conflicts have gone on for thousands of years. Nothing even the US can do will stop it.

Look at what is going on in Iraq. The US occupies the entire country, and we still can't stop the conflicts between the sunni and the shiite.

[shane32Eire]

Right going post some things i just heard on UK/Irish news I watched today, I persume they are facts and hope they are! BBC/RTE dont lie...

First off the UN soldiers begged the Israel army to stop bombing around them at least 6 times (believed to be 10) , and they were told each time they would be stopped, but they werent and the 4 UN peacekeepers died.
Kofi Anan was outraged and said the attacks were delibert. A man known to be calm and collective and not to shout out lies.

It also seems the British foreign minister is angry with the US for using preswick airport as a stoping ground for the planes bringing 5,000lb bombs to Israel. Also i doubt a Minister would speak lies...

The Irish Foreign minister today called Israel a 'Agressive country, with evil ambitions' !!!!

So if you dont like what i say, you still cant say there not true facts and you must be able to see the reason of my feelings against Israel.

[shane32Eire]

Quiz Quote:
Originally Posted by Insanity7
Anyone else smell WWIII?

Yep, most definently. *sniff* "I love the smell of Napalm in the morning"

*'Ride of the valkyries' Drums through the sky*
followed by the doors..'this is the end'...

I personally dont think this will be WW3 it will get worse and casualties will be epic, specialy civilians. But it wont be WW3 i dont know what will, it will take something bigger then this. But the way this is going it will ruin Lebanons economy for decades and could end up starting famine and hundreds of thousands of deaths. who knows?

[Jay2984]

Judaism is a form of christianity
Christianity is a form of Judiasm, the first christians were mostly Jews, among others, that branched off into their own religion after jesus was crusified. Didnt mean to get off topic just wanted to clear that up.

[Quiz]

*'Ride of the valkyries' Drums through the sky*
followed by the doors..'this is the end'...

I personally dont think this will be WW3 it will get worse and casualties will be epic, specialy civilians. But it wont be WW3 i dont know what will, it will take something bigger then this. But the way this is going it will ruin Lebanons economy for decades and could end up starting famine and hundreds of thousands of deaths. who knows?

Im suprised you don't see it coming. Isreal and Hezbohla go to war. North Korea is testing dangerous missles that they shouldn't even have and Iran is developing nuclear energy that they don't even need. Iran is probalby going to get involved in the lebones crisis and the U.S. is going to invade Korea soon. The U.S. Military is already preparing for Korea in Quam. I don't mean its going to happen now but in the near future.

[Glock 19]

Please stay on topic this is not about North Korea. If want to discuss that start another thread on it thanks.

[Grindstone]

Now that I have had time to cool off from this thread, I'll post my opinions on the matter.

Let's focus on the main issue here, the Hezbollah, as they are the instigators in this conflict. For those of you who are unaware of the Hezbollah, please click on the link provided:

Hezbollah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah)

I trust we can all agree that wiki is a credible source of information.

Remember, this is the same Hezbollah that ran a truck full of explosives into the US Marine barracks in Beruit in 1983, killing 241 soldiers while they lay in bed. This is one of many autrocities attributed to their cause. The Hezbollah is a radical Islamic faction, much like the Hamas party or Al Qaeda.

Now, on July 12, 2006, Hezbollah radicals fired upon Israeli sttlements and inhabitants. Then, 2 Israeli soldiers were kidnapped (8 killed) by Hezbollah militants. After that, war has ensued and casualties are mounting.

I noticed some have cited that the UN should be more involved. They were, before this began. UN Resolution 1559 was passed in September of 2004 mandating that the Hezbollah disband in Lebanon. Lebanon had 22 months to stifle this problem, though they did little if anything:

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1559 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1559)

Because Lebanon chose to disregard the UN Resolution, and knew full well that Hezbollah was a direct threat to Israel, I am hard presssed to side with them in this recent conflict. I see Israel defending itself against a another terrorist regime which was ordered to disband almost 2 years ago by the UN. Those of you who herald the UN as the standard by which we should obey should re-evaluate your stance against Israel, as you are acting hypocritical by supporting Lebanon's position to disregard a UN resolution.

Therefore, I find Israel's actions justified in this matter.

*Side note: as for the UN observation team that was recently hit, I cannot say. Although it would not be a wise move to attack UN members, and therefore, by that I would judge it was a mistake on Israel's part, albeit a tragic one.

[Quiz]

Its starting to make alot more sens now

[BRUTAL1TY]

Now that I have had time to cool off from this thread, I'll post my opinions on the matter.

Let's focus on the main issue here, the Hezbollah, as they are the instigators in this conflict. For those of you who are unaware of the Hezbollah, please click on the link provided:

Hezbollah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah)

I trust we can all agree that wiki is a credible source of information.

Remember, this is the same Hezbollah that ran a truck full of explosives into the US Marine barracks in Beruit in 1983, killing 241 soldiers while they lay in bed. This is one of many autrocities attributed to their cause. The Hezbollah is a radical Islamic faction, much like the Hamas party or Al Qaeda.

Now, on July 12, 2006, Hezbollah radicals fired upon Israeli sttlements and inhabitants. Then, 2 Israeli soldiers were kidnapped (8 killed) by Hezbollah militants. After that, war has ensued and casualties are mounting.

I noticed some have cited that the UN should be more involved. They were, before this began. UN Resolution 1559 was passed in September of 2004 mandating that the Hezbollah disband in Lebanon. Lebanon had 22 months to stifle this problem, though they did little if anything:

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1559 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1559)

Because Lebanon chose to disregard the UN Resolution, and knew full well that Hezbollah was a direct threat to Israel, I am hard presssed to side with them in this recent conflict. I see Israel defending itself against a another terrorist regime which was ordered to disband almost 2 years ago by the UN. Those of you who herald the UN as the standard by which we should obey should re-evaluate your stance against Israel, as you are acting hypocritical by supporting Lebanon's position to disregard a UN resolution.

Therefore, I find Israel's actions justified in this matter.

*Side note: as for the UN observation team that was recently hit, I cannot say. Although it would not be a wise move to attack UN members, and therefore, by that I would judge it was a mistake on Israel's part, albeit a tragic one.


Wow :congrats: VERY good points... I feel kind of stupid for not pointing out the UN Resolution 1559, earlier. Just didn't remember... thanks for pointing that out.

I too also believe the UN post was hit accidentally. What could Israel gain from hitting it? Nothing.

Thirdly, it seems Syria may be waiting a bit to attack... We'll see

Syrian reporter: In Syria there is atmosphere of eve of war

Exclusive: In conversation in Damascus, senior Syrian journalist tells about sentiments in Syria ('as if there will be war any moment'); talks about military preparations in his country ('identifying your reinforcements in Golan Heights'); and estimates that Israeli pounding in Lebanon to intensify grassroots support of Nasrallah and his organization. Also in Syria, he says, Nasrallah more popular than ever. Article here (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...282279,00.html)

Syrian army now at its highest state of alert
By Gideon Alon, Haaretz Correspondent

Syria has placed its military at its highest state of alert in recent years, Israel Defense Forces Intelligence Chief Major General Amos Yadlin told the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on Tuesday. Syrian forces do remain, however, on a defensive rather than offensive alert.

Yadlin emphasized that "neither Syria nor Israel are interested in a military clash but the situation is explosive and the events may potentially be incorrectly interpreted. This could entangle Syria up in a battle against us."

Hezbollah is interested in opening another front for Israel with Syria, Yadlin said. Hezbollah gunners are firing at the Golan Heights in an effort to embroil Syria in the fighting.

Cont'd... (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742628.html)

If Syria gets involved then all hell breaks loose (if it already hasnt). I know this is somewhat off topic in regards to Lebanon, but Syria getting involved will HEAVILY affect the battle between Hezbollah and Israel. Put on your hard hats folks, the sky may soon fall...

[Eazy_D]

Because Lebanon chose to disregard the UN Resolution, and knew full well that Hezbollah was a direct threat to Israel, I am hard presssed to side with them in this recent conflict. I see Israel defending itself against a another terrorist regime which was ordered to disband almost 2 years ago by the UN. Those of you who herald the UN as the standard by which we should obey should re-evaluate your stance against Israel, as you are acting hypocritical by supporting Lebanon's position to disregard a UN resolution.

Therefore, I find Israel's actions justified in this matter.

*Side note: as for the UN observation team that was recently hit, I cannot say. Although it would not be a wise move to attack UN members, and therefore, by that I would judge it was a mistake on Israel's part, albeit a tragic one.

I too belive Israel are justified in attackind Hezbollah BUT! So many innocent women and Children have died and will continue to die from the actions of both parties I find it hard to come to terms with any of it being justified. Its an impossible situation and neither the U.N. the U.S. or U.K. have an Answer.

[shane32Eire]

Sky News(British News Channel):
(sorry bout any bad spelling!)

The 476 dead is a massive under-estimate, they are not accounting for the probable hundreds of dead traped in buildings/under rubble.

The UNARMED UN peace-keepers are all fleeing southern Lebanon they are in fear of their lives and say 'Israel cant be trusted'
Kofi Anan Is still outraged at Israel for not taking responsability for dead UN peace-keepers.

We Must not forget that these Bombs Isreal are using aren't small arms, were not talking about AK-47s people, were talking 5,000lb bombs being used in civilians streets and on schools/playgrounds and work places.
The Hezbollah have taken a horrible plan, they are starting to hide amoung citizens which Is going to be catastrohic and will not deter Isreals agrresive Stance.

Britain Is still outraged at the US for using the scotish airport of Prestwick to re-fuel the planes bringing the bombs for Isreal to use in southern Lebanon, Irish Foreign Minister Is also taking a stand against the US as they are now using Shannon airport to re-fuel planes bound for Israel, Noone knows what they carry.

DONT ask for links or proof..
It is true, this is a famous news channel well known to be non biast and not talk lies or un-truths.

[Quiz]

DONT ask for links or proof..
It is true, this is a famous news channel well known to be non biast and not talk lies or un-truths.

Hundreds of Katyushas have hit northern Israel in the current fighting, including 96 on Friday, one of which hit a hospital. The Afula strike came two days after Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah vowed his guerrillas would fire rockets beyond Haifa, Israel's third-largest city, which has been hit repeatedly in the conflict.

Hezbollah fires new rockets into Israel - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060729/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel)

At least 445 people have been killed in Lebanon in the fighting, most of them civilians, according to a Health Ministry count Friday based on bodies taken to hospitals. But Lebanon's health minister estimated Thursday that as many as Lebanese 600 civilians have been killed, with other victims buried in rubble.

On the Israeli side, 33 soldiers have died in fighting, and Hezbollah rocket attacks on northern Israel have killed 19 civilians, the Israeli army said

[shane32Eire]

Israel Ignore the UN/International Community's Plea for a 72hr Cease Fire, for humanitarian Aid and to help the injured, and bury the Dead.
Israel Refuses to do this, to the shock of many Nations.
And then kills over 50 innocent people in one attack!!!!

Now if a Country gets away with acting like this, I dont see what could be worse?
'Evil' is a word that comes to mind..

[Quiz]

Thats a bunch of bs. Hezbohla is hiding in civilian cities and Isreal is in the fields away from their population. So who is the evil ones after all. Hezbohla is shooting Kaytosha rockets from civilian buildings. So Isreal has no choice. I guess your pro terrorist media is not telling you this Shane. Isreal troops are not cowards hiding behind innocent people and using them as human sheilds as they fire their stupid littel rockets. Plus Hezbolha started this whole war in the first place. If hezbohla wants to fight then they should fight on the fields like a real solider would.

[BRUTAL1TY]

gotta agree with Quiz. That is exactly what is happening.. The Hezbohllah fighters are using civilians as body armor

[Jeet]

gotta agree with Quiz. That is exactly what is happening.. The Hezbohllah fighters are using civilians as body armor
that would be the style of urban guerilla warfare, and Hezbohlah is using it efficiently

[YoungCalgar]

I'm just gonna jump in here, now it is a safe bet that this has been said here but.


This is not News, they have been killing each other for going on what? a few thousand years? it flairs up big time every now and then (Like in the mid 90's) And not the UN, not the US, not Europe not any country will bring peace.
The ONLY thing that will is the anti-christ.

So I resort to my old standby, If JFK comes back to life I am killing myself.



(Incase you don't understand that last bit. ,as even most christians won't get it, it says that the anti-christ will suffer a mortal head wound that the whole world will see then come back to life and bring "peace". And I am awful hard pressed to somone who hasen't seen the zapruder film)

[Razors Edge]

Thats a bunch of bs. Hezbohla is hiding in civilian cities and Isreal is in the fields away from their population. So who is the evil ones after all. Hezbohla is shooting Kaytosha rockets from civilian buildings. So Isreal has no choice. I guess your pro terrorist media is not telling you this Shane. Isreal troops are not cowards hiding behind innocent people and using them as human sheilds as they fire their stupid littel rockets. Plus Hezbolha started this whole war in the first place. If hezbohla wants to fight then they should fight on the fields like a real solider would.
QFT

You could not be more right.

[Jeet]

Thats a bunch of bs. Hezbohla is hiding in civilian cities and Isreal is in the fields away from their population. So who is the evil ones after all. Hezbohla is shooting Kaytosha rockets from civilian buildings. So Isreal has no choice. I guess your pro terrorist media is not telling you this Shane. Isreal troops are not cowards hiding behind innocent people and using them as human sheilds as they fire their stupid littel rockets. Plus Hezbolha started this whole war in the first place. If hezbohla wants to fight then they should fight on the fields like a real solider would.
what is your defination of evil? maybe some see the Isreali's as the evil ones

[CrAzYAmerican12]

Jeet, don't try and defend what Hezbollah is doing. If you see what Isreal is doing as wrong, then you don't fully understand what is going on.

Israel Ignore the UN/International Community's Plea for a 72hr Cease Fire, for humanitarian Aid and to help the injured, and bury the Dead.
Israel Refuses to do this, to the shock of many Nations.
And then kills over 50 innocent people in one attack!!!!

Now if a Country gets away with acting like this, I dont see what could be worse?
'Evil' is a word that comes to mind..

So would you consider Hezbollah's launching of rockets into civilian areas evil? Isreal has had enough of Hezbollah, who wouldn't? It's easy for people who disagree with what Isreal is doing b/c they don't live there. They aren't around the constant bombardment of rockets comming from Hezbollah, and that is why most Isreali's agree with what their government is doing.

And I do feel bad for innocent life lost, but Isreal did trop thousands of flyers and warnings to the Lebonese people before they started their bombing campigns. I guess if you don't take that seriously, well then you learn the hard way. If people aren't gunna leave, some are going to die. Thats how war is...its not fun.

[Jeet]

Jeet, don't try and defend what Hezbollah is doing. If you see what Isreal is doing as wrong, then you don't fully understand what is going on.



So would you consider Hezbollah's launching of rockets into civilian areas evil? Isreal has had enough of Hezbollah, who wouldn't? It's easy for people who disagree with what Isreal is doing b/c they don't live there. They aren't around the constant bombardment of rockets comming from Hezbollah, and that is why most Isreali's agree with what their government is doing.

And I do feel bad for innocent life lost, but Isreal did trop thousands of flyers and warnings to the Lebonese people before they started their bombing campigns. I guess if you don't take that seriously, well then you learn the hard way. If people aren't gunna leave, some are going to die. Thats how war is...its not fun.
dont try and psychoanalyze my post by saying that i am supporting Hezbollah , im just saying that i dont like a lot of people are trying to act like they know what they are talking about and should stay out of it cause they really have no idea, because all they do is listen to media coverage

[CrAzYAmerican12]

You are correct. Most people do base their opinions on the liberal media coverage.

[Fanta]

Israel using illegal chemical weapons?

ShoutWire - Israel Using Illegal Chemical Weapons? GRAPHIC IMAGES (http://www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/22978/Israel_Using_Illegal_Chemical_Weapons_GRAPHIC_IMAG ES)

<EDIT> NOTE THE WORD "GRAPHIC". THERE ARE SOME DISTURBING IMAGES ON THAT LINK

[Don_Rico]

Israel using illegal chemical weapons?

ShoutWire - Israel Using Illegal Chemical Weapons? GRAPHIC IMAGES (http://www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/22978/Israel_Using_Illegal_Chemical_Weapons_GRAPHIC_IMAG ES)

<EDIT> NOTE THE WORD "GRAPHIC". THERE ARE SOME DISTURBING IMAGES ON THAT LINK


...Yeah, that was pretty damn disturbing. And no, that does really not look normal.