Lebanese crisis

[Scotracer]

As this is the first thread in the new sub-forum, I thought I should make it on the most talked about topic of late, the Lebanese-Isreali conflict.

I would love to hear what people from other countries have to say on this (also I was in France when it all began and I am not fully aware of all the goings-on).
Personally, I feel that Isreal is completely out of order on this, and has (as in the past, a la Palestine) been going rather over zealous with the force it uses to get it's point across or achieve it's goal. One of the main reasons for this I feel is that the US has made no attempt to call for a ceasefire, and has actually (according to the Isreali prime minister) promoted the use of force. Now there is a number of reasons for this; one of which is the large proportion of Jews in the US (which makes would put the government in hot water if it acted with force), so they are almost scared to act. Yes, many European countries have called for a ceasefire and the UN has declared Isreal's actions in direct violation of many humanitarian laws. Even with this, not much action will be taken until the US realises what is going on (as was stated yesterday on the BBC by a former US assistant secutary of the state, that the US government doesn't fully understand what is going on). Now, the US is completely disregarding the UN and European governments (not the first time either) and is choosing it's own path. This is not acceptable and the US has far too much power for it's own good.
This is not just a one sided argument. The Lebanese have been retaliating by firing rockets into Isreal, but this is just self-defence (which Isreal claims it is doing aswell!) and Isreal should stop before we have a full middle-eastern conflict on our hands.

Please, add your comments as this is a topic I feel strongly about.

Personally I think its going to get worse before it gets better, The UN are taking measures now but I dont think they can do much. Isreal will not let it go that so many of their people have died including alot of soldiers. And Hezzbollah are as stern as ever.
It seems other countrys like Iran might start getting involved which can only mean the US will get involved.
Personally I think Isreal are in the wrong, Ive never liked how they dealt with Lebanon or with the problems in the Gaza strip/West Bank, they have always been too agressive and ruthless.
The only Reason the US arent involved is because Isreal have a very strong infulence in the States a worrying amount..
(only my opinion..)

[KH0RNE]

Originally Posted by ScotRacer

This is not acceptable and the US has far too much power for it's own good.

oh well what what can ya do? i mean it's not like anyone is going to try to stop us with force.

[Gameman54]

Um Scott, Grindstone deleted my thread on The Crisis in Mid East because he said his is a gaming site. He might delete this too.

[Scotracer]

Originally Posted by KH0RNE

oh well what what can ya do? i mean it's not like anyone is going to try to stop us with force.

KH0RNE, you are saying that like you are from some terrorist state and require someone to put your rein of terror to an end. I really hope that the US has the common sense (for the good of the world) that it can say the error of it's ways and at least listen to the UN. That was an arrogant post and unnecessary, read the rules before you post again. It certainly isn't helping the image of the US in other countries...

KH0RNE Quote:

oh well what what can ya do? i mean it's not like anyone is going to try to stop us with force.

wow, Well thats a mature response this thread is for opinions and discussion of the 'facts', not nonsense replys.
Please dont turn it into a fight, back up your opinions with facts or strong feeling towards something..
otherwise the Mods will close it.

[cablekiller]

Israel is never going to have peace until their enemies are dealt with. They are facing the same kind of threats that we are in the US from terrorists. They hate us... they hate that we don't all believe in Allah, they hate our free society, our prosperity, and among countless other things. What no one seems to understand is that Israel's conflict is not with Lebanon, but with the militia group Hezbollah. UN Resolution 1559, passed in 2004, called for the disarming of the Hezbollah, but the Lebanese military has been unable to get it done, so Israel is going to do it for them to protect themselves from constant rocket fire into their cities. I can't say I blame them.

Good point Cablekiller,
but is bombing Lebanon and killing countless civilians the way Isreal should deal with a threat they exagerate?
I think Isreal are a threat to that region they wont be happy till they have weak, useless, unarmed countrys all around them.

[cablekiller]

Originally Posted by shane32ie

Good point Cablekiller,
but is bombing Lebanon and killing countless civilians the way Isreal should deal with a threat they exagerate?
I think Isreal are a threat to that region they wont be happy till they have weak, useless, unarmed countrys all around them.

I wouldn't be happy either if my country was surrounded by radical tyrants, and my people have been persecuted and slaughtered for nearly 5000 years. Israel gave a good deal of warning to the civilains in their target areas to evacuate. Civilian casualties are never good, but sometimes unavoidable. Sucks, but that's life.

[Scotracer]

Isreal has always been the same. But we (the UN included) has done very little, and just sat back and watch them take Palestine land and now this. They cannot be allowed to continue, and I believe that some sort of warning from the leading nations of the world should shock them enough to at least think about what they are doing and what could happen if the US or UK gets involved.

[Enola Bomber]

Originally Posted by cablekiller

I wouldn't be happy either if my country was surrounded by radical tyrants, and my people have been persecuted and slaughtered for nearly 5000 years. Israel gave a good deal of warning to the civilains in their target areas to evacuate. Civilian casualties are never good, but sometimes unavoidable. Sucks, but that's life.

I agree with the fact that no country wants to be neighbored by terrorists or radicalists, but what i think he meant is that there must be a way to handle such a situation without risking civilians in the process. Responding with violence is only going to escalate the situation until its at a place where its more than just a conflict between the two. This is how bigger wars start, and I dont think now, or any time is a good time to start such a war. Tension is too high and I think the US stepping in will only aggrivate or provok the situation into becoming something we dont want. What about the innocent people who are involved/impacted by this that dont want to be? Is it fair to those people? The UN and all its joined Countries set rules that the US doesnt seem to ever want to follow, why no consequence for there actions against UN policy? I dont think if Germany or any other UN party broke UN policy they would get away with it as easy as the USA. Why do the US feel they have the right to overstep their boundaries all the time and wave their guns around where they shouldnt be? I dont understand their actions, but I believe there is another way to solve these problems, and it doesnt involve blowing them out of proportions.

[BRUTAL1TY]

I feel the USA will get involved but only if things escalate and it will only be a minimal involvement. I feel Israel is right in what they are doing. They feel threatened and they need to defend themselves now sure there has been civilian casualties but EVERY war has them. Also, ScotRacer wasnt the Palestinean land that Israel took over (which is Gaza), given to the Palestineans by Israel? I understand things have escalated quite a bit since the first soldier kidnapping and the Gaza invasion, but do you really think the UN can do much?? The UN IS worthless its a proven fact. The only way this will stop is if Israel and Hezbollah come to agreement on their terms, not by some BS ceasefire thing that the UN thinks will solve all world problems.

Now, I'm going to say this. I won't be the least bit damn surprised if Damascus is completely obliterated by Israel. To the point, of it not being a city at all. You may say I'm crazy but if things escalate my guess is that is part of the outcome.

Ok now everyone get ready for Gee or Grindstone to delete this thread... Perhaps we should ask Matt for a politics section

Ok now everyone get ready for Gee or Grindstone to delete this thread... Perhaps we should ask Matt for a politics section

There is a new forum its allowed now! stop saying it!.

I agree with Scot completly and would be interested to see what other europeans say, its interesting that the Americans members seem to think what Isreal is doing is right.

When you say surrounded by tyrants and terroists:
1) just because you dont agree with there culture does NOT make them terroists.You are calling nations and cultures terroists just because ther US doesnt agree with their way of life.
And you can be sure these nations see the US as tyrants and terroists.
2) alot of the world including me see george bush as a tyrant.

And Isreal is a new country it used to be palenstine and the palenstines were hard done by the set up after WW2, and you can see why they have a right to fight for their deserved freedom.

[cablekiller]

Originally Posted by BRUTAL1TY

Ok now everyone get ready for Gee or Grindstone to delete this thread... Perhaps we should ask Matt for a politics section

That's what this forum is for... debate of any kind, so as long as the maturity level stays up where it should, which it has so far, there shouldn't be any punishments from mods.

Originally Posted by Enola Bomber

The UN and all its joined Countries set rules that the US doesnt seem to ever want to follow, why no consequence for there actions against UN policy?

The reason for this is because the UN has no real power without the US and the UK. Whenever a resolution is passed by the UN, whether it require military action or money, who gives the lives and fits the bill? The US and UK. Why? That's another debate all together.

[BRUTAL1TY]

Originally Posted by shane32ie

There is a new forum its allowed now! stop saying it!.

I agree with Scot completly and would be interested to see what other europeans say, its interesting that the Americans members seem to think what Isreal is doing is right.

When you say surrounded by tyrants and terroists:
1) just because you dont agree with there culture does NOT make them terroists.You are calling nations and cultures terroists just because ther US doesnt agree with their way of life.
And you can be sure these nations see the US as tyrants and terroists.
2) alot of the world including me see george bush as a tyrant.

And Isreal is a new country it used to be palenstine and the palenstines were hard done by the set up after WW2, and you can see why they have a right to fight for their deserved freedom.

My apologies for not knowing we had a poltiics forum, I've been away for awhile, but you don't have to freak out on me...

Now you have your opinion, but I will say this. I get the sense, and I could be wrong, but I get the sense that you think the fight between Israel and Palestine is brand new, as if it wasnt happening 40 years ago. Sure Israel wasnt a nation till what was it, 1949 or something? But this is a battle between two brothers a long time ago. This goes much farther back than some land they owned around the 1940's. It goes back to Isaac (Jews) and Ishmael (Arabs) the sons of Abraham. This is a conflict that has continued between these two half brothers for 4,000 years. It won't end, it will only escalate.

Ok I veered off road there, back to the topic.

[Enola Bomber]

Originally Posted by BRUTAL1TY

My apologies for not knowing we had a poltiics forum, I've been away for awhile, but you don't have to freak out on me...

Now you have your opinion, but I will say this. I get the sense, and I could be wrong, but I get the sense that you think the fight between Israel and Palestine is brand new, as if it wasnt happening 40 years ago. Sure Israel wasnt a nation till what was it, 1949 or something? But this is a battle between two brothers a long time ago. This goes much farther back than some land they owned around the 1940's. It goes back to Isaac (Jews) and Ishmael (Arabs) the sons of Abraham. This conflict that has continued between these two half brothers for 4,000 years. It won't end, it will only escalate

Think of this then. Say your brother and you are engaged in an ongoing grudge match that has been fairly subtle and not too big for your childhood. Then some stranger comes in and starts beating you up because he agrees with your brother. Thats what the US is doing and always has been doing to every other nation they feel fit to. They arent wanted there and by including themselves in the equation, it becomes a much bigger affair then a "family" problem.

[Comical]

IMO:

The U.S. cannot intrude in a raging battle without a purpose. Of course the U.S. is a country that believes in security, and helping the good, but until there is a brink of edge, I'm pretty sure there will be some consequences and actions the U.S. will bring on a maximum level. If "we" do decide to go into battle with these guys, we will need the congress's permission to stay in a longer battle, or the president will just send in troops for 90 days, ( correct me if I'm wrong. )

I'm pretty sure, the U.S. isn't just sitting back. We have to find solutions to solve this crisis. Now...With me not being affiliated with the presidents party ... I have my doubts that he will do the "right" thing, and if he does take actions, the situation will just get more horrific.

[cablekiller]

Originally Posted by BRUTAL1TY

Now you have your opinion, but I will say this. I get the sense, and I could be wrong, but I get the sense that you think the fight between Israel and Palestine is brand new, as if it wasnt happening 40 years ago. Sure Israel wasnt a nation till what was it, 1949 or something? But this is a battle between two brothers a long time ago. This goes much farther back than some land they owned around the 1940's. It goes back to Isaac (Jews) and Ishmael (Arabs) the sons of Abraham. This is a conflict that has continued between these two half brothers for 4,000 years. It won't end, it will only escalate.

Exactly. The Palestinians are the remnants of the canaanites, philistines, etc. that occupied the countries(presently) of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and parts of Turkey. Moses and Aaron defeated these people, and led the Israelites into the promise land. Israel has given up much of this land to try and keep the peace, but it never works. This fight will never stop no matter how much US and UN involvement. The best we can do is delay the inevitable.

[BRUTAL1TY]

Originally Posted by Enola Bomber

Think of this then. Say your brother and you are engaged in an ongoing grudge match that has been fairly subtle and not too big for your childhood. Then some stranger comes in and starts beating you up because he agrees with your brother. Thats what the US is doing and always has been doing to every other nation they feel fit to. They arent wanted there and by including themselves in the equation, it becomes a much bigger affair then a "family" problem.

I completely understand what you are saying and a great analogy btw Enola.
Now I really dont see anything wrong with what we are doing right now. I just dont, and that is not my American-born bias coming through there. Simply, the UN cant do crap, the Middle East sure will continue its fighting cuz it can never solve its own problems without bloodshed. So whose going to intervene and try and get their hands dirty and fix the situation?

Ok moving on. Now I don't mean to sound like a but you guys cannot count on the UN, erase them from the equation, ok. The UN simply cannot do things right. I mean