Podcast XXV: '08 Tale of the Tape - Page 4

IIJoshIII · 09-03-2008, 09:04 PM

Someone give me cliff notes on this argument. I don't want to read through the whole thing.

Kona Palangi · 09-03-2008, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fortunzfavor

Those are genres of TOPIC (those dealing with dramatic content). They are not gamePLAY centric genres (those dealing the way in which a game world is experienced).

They don't want to remove genres from games. They want reemphasize the topical ones (drama, action, scifi etc) over the gameplay based ones (FPS, RPG, Racer, Platformer, etc).

So, they're all still genres .... You can word play all day Fortunz but the fact remains. Are we going to agree to disagree or would you like to continue?

fortunzfavor · 09-03-2008, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kona Palangi

So, they're all still genres .... You can word play all day Fortunz but the fact remains. Are we going to agree to disagree or would you like to continue?

It's still the weekend for a while now. I've got nothing better to do.

(look below for cliffnotes josh)

Two dudes said: We think gameplay genres will give way to dramatic ones, and that's good

Malo: Wait, aren't dramatic genres still genres? Morons! They want to replace one genre with another! A distinction without a difference!

Fortunz, explaining, not accusing: No, they want one type of genre to wane and have the other wax. They think games are a stronger entertainment medium when stories (topical genres) are more compelling than technical limitations (gameplay genres) of the controls and game design. The difference you missed in their distinction is that there is more than one group of genres.

Malo getting defensive: But they're both genres!

Fortunz: if they wanted all genres to disappear, that would make sense as a point. They just want the gameplay centric genres to wane

Malo: you're playing word games!

Fortunz getting annoyed: I'm using words. You're ignoring them.

Kona Palangi · 09-03-2008, 10:57 PM

I am beginning to believe you are incredibly inept or extremely dense. You have freely admitted there are multiple forms of genres. If you amalgamate current gaming genres with categorizations reminiscent of movies and novels you still have one form of genre or another present. Again, I will provide you with the definition.

Genre: a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like

If you create a video game with an emphasis on a drama “topical genre” intertwined with a hypothetical FPS, what you have is a drama first person shooter. I’ve never stated supplemental “topical genres” would be adverse, on the contrary, I believe it may be quite beneficial. However, my point is, and always has been, they will remain to be in genres. If “gameplay centric” development subsides in favor of a more broad, “topical genre” based format you still have a genre. Period. Why you choose to debate this axiom is beyond me. Maybe the entire “topical” versus “game centric” labels enable you sleep better alone at night. Whatever the case may be it has become monotonous. Clearly you are reading far too deep into what I have said and continue on with your subtly veiled diatribes.

We have already agreed that a blending of current gaming genres exist and I have been on record numerous occasions citing this trend. I believe it will beget better gaming for all, however, it is the story telling which is halting the progress. Ken Levine stated, “"If you want people to follow along with your plot, it has to be really ****ing stupid". Bioshock was far from stupid and I doubt Ken would release a resembling product but with a mentality similar to this, immersive story telling may falter and hinder any progress made. It is the story telling that is most important and not graphics or length. I’m sure we can agree on that.

As for me “missing the distinction”, that was an assumption on your part as the difference between the two were irrelevant as my singular point was they’re both genres. Funny how you think I’ve become defensive, I find it hilarious. To state a simplistic point just to have another recondite the issue is pretty funny. Whether it be a topical genre or a game centric genre, in the end they are both genres individually and combined. That was my entire ****ing point from the beginning.

fortunzfavor · 10-03-2008, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kona Palangi

However, my point is, and always has been, they will remain to be in genres. If “gameplay centric” development subsides in favor of a more broad, “topical genre” based format you still have a genre. Period. Why you choose to debate this axiom is beyond me.

I have yet to debate that point.

Dyack has yet to debate that point.

You are debating that point, and it is beyond me as to why. You claimed in your podcast that dyack wanted to be rid of genres in video games--you ridiculed him for not understanding that scifi IS a genre. He did NOT say he wanted to be rid of all genres, and he does know that scifi is a genre. I kindly pointed out that he said no such thing. You could have said "opps" a page ago and saved yourself the hassle. Simple as that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by malo's source

Denis Dyack, president of Too Human developer Silicon Knights, said, "In the future, in five to 10 years from now, there aren't going to be game genres [like there are today]. Instead there is going to be drama, sci-fi, action...just like you have in books."

Wait, Malo didn't understand what games genres "like there are today" meant. Apparently he doesn't know that when people separate games today, they do so game mechanic genres like FPS, RPG, RTS et al. And he didn't get that the reference to the literary specified the types of genres you do want to see separating games. Could someone please clarify for him?

Quote:

Originally Posted by malo's source, the very next paragraph

Tim Willits, co-owner of Rage-maker id Software, agreed. He added, "For me, I would like to see RPGs, FPSs, RTSs--I would like to see all these genres just go away."

Oh. So you guys are contrasting the game genres we have today (gameplay centric ones--noted by listing specific genres) against the kinds of genres that we have in mainstream entertainment (topical ones like scifi action et al). You want the latter, and not the former. Also, you, Willits, immediately understood what Dyack was saying. Almost as if he was clear the first time and didn't need a visit from the logic police.

Quote:

To state a simplistic point just to have another recondite the issue is pretty funny.

We would agree on that if recondite was a verb. But it is funny when you make a simple point ("he didn't say what you said he said") and have someone turn it into a huge mess.

Malo, you heard hoofs falling behind you and you assumed there was a herd of zebras. That was not the most logical assumption. You're not in South Africa. So when you hear a captain of gaming industry speak, your first assumption shouldn't be that he doesn't know what a "genre" is. Quote him properly, and you're less likely to make that mistake again.

Kona Palangi · 10-03-2008, 09:25 AM

Wow Fortunz! You win an Xbox 360 Elite from the site, go MIA for months and then BAM ... Someone talks about genres and you turn into a modern post whore. I'm going to talk about genres in every Podcast in the future! You still fail to see my point and being that you never will, there is no reason to further discuss the matter. You've taken a 2 minute segment from the PC and turned it into 3 pages

Sir Charles · 10-03-2008, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kona Palangi

Wow Fortunz! You win an Xbox 360 Elite from the site

I thought it was Incinorator that won the elite? I may be wrong.

axeman2008 · 10-03-2008, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kona Palangi

Wow Fortunz! You win an Xbox 360 Elite from the site, go MIA for months and then BAM ... Someone talks about genres and you turn into a modern post whore. I'm going to talk about genres in every Podcast in the future! You still fail to see my point and being that you never will, there is no reason to further discuss the matter. You've taken a 2 minute segment from the PC and turned it into 3 pages

Think i'll call that a buuurnnnnzzzzz!!!

Kona Palangi · 10-03-2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Charles

I thought it was Incinorator that won the elite? I may be wrong.

I stand corrected, it was incinerator. He too has been MIA but for much longer than Fortune.

hollywood21639 · 10-03-2008, 01:59 PM

I'm sure that fortunz will be ok as long as the current or any future GENRES support IR (Dual analog FTL).

Kona Palangi · 10-03-2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywood21639

I'm sure that fortunz will be ok as long as the current or any future GENRES support IR (Dual analog FTL).

Hahaha

fortunzfavor · 10-03-2008, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kona Palangi

Wow Fortunz! You win an Xbox 360 Elite from the site, go MIA for months and then BAM ... Someone talks about genres and you turn into a modern post whore. I'm going to talk about genres in every Podcast in the future! You still fail to see my point and being that you never will, there is no reason to further discuss the matter. You've taken a 2 minute segment from the PC and turned it into 3 pages

As noted, that wasn't me. Pretty sure I finished last in that one.

But it was a fun contest, and kudos to you guys for holding it. AFAIK, however, I was only completely absent from the site in December. I duck my head in from time to time when I spot subjects of interest.

I like broad gaming topics--the evolution of genres happens to be a pretty interesting one, and Dyack's prediction was a nice take on it. And I listen to the podcast for a reason, it's a well-made and well-staffed PC. You (malo) are a legitimately cool guy and well worth listening to--you know how to be interesting, something lacking in a lot of pcs. Also, Scot either knows 10 times more than I do, or his accent just makes it feel like he does--but either way I always walk away feeling like I've learned something from his segments. Good to know you're gonna be a regular dude.

I turned a two minute segment into 30 second explanation of what you missed from Dyack's comments--something I doubt you'll ever recognize. It was just a friendly notice. You turned it into 3 pages because you're almost as stubborn as I am. Kudos should be equally shared between us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywood

I'm sure that fortunz will be ok as long as the current or any future GENRES support IR (Dual analog FTL).

Someone remembers me! Or possibly just knows how to look up my past posts. But either way, you cared.

Kona Palangi · 10-03-2008, 05:59 PM

Well Fortunz ... If I've learned one thing it's that the gaming media is just like political media. People have a tendency to cherry pick statements that don't entirely convey the feelings or intent or the person being quoted. It's a damn shame but what can you do? HOWEVER, I ****ing stand by my moose knuckle statement!

fortunzfavor · 10-03-2008, 09:59 PM

Fair enough. Wait... You are gaming media

Gore Verbinski disagrees with Dyack:

Quote:

The initial response is that gaming needs good writing. I've heard that. They need screenwriters. Well, hold on a second. Before you jump to that conclusion, I don't want to impose cinema's narrative onto a completely different medium. I think that's naive. The fact that the player is also the audience means you shouldn't be imposing a scenario where the audience is passive. Don't put those rules onto gaming.

Kona Palangi · 10-03-2008, 10:14 PM

By definition I suppose I am. However, I do what I do as a hobby and not as a profession ... There is a distinction. I'm not backed or bank rolled by a corporate parent company. I have written a few reviews, a handful of editorials, and produce the Podcast every now and again. I'm just a simple ****ing gamer. I've never claimed to be anything else. So if an obscure Podcast with 30 listeners strong and minor published works constitutes as gaming media .. So be it.

Zeta Crossfire · 10-03-2008, 10:42 PM

i actually like both line ups but clicked 360 just cus im really excited for Left 4 Dead and Too Human more then most games. of course im really excited for KillZone 2 but 2 beats 1

fortunzfavor · 10-03-2008, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kona Palangi

So if an obscure Podcast with 30 listeners strong and minor published works constitutes as gaming media .. So be it.

It was mostly intended as a compliment, albeit, a little left-handed. 30 listeners ain't bad for an indie podcast. Do you guys publish anywhere but here? Any podcasting communities?

catpowerd · 16-03-2008, 10:29 PM

Great podcast! anyone know what the song at the beginning was?