Sad news about 360 disk space

[TXSPheonix]

Originally Posted by hussain21

If movies makers take advantage of that extra space, then yes we will see better video quality and sound, but that's if they take advantage of the extra space. I wouldn't be surprised if movie makers, at the beginning of this format cycle, don't give you better sound or video (or they will give you minor imporvements) and just shove the extra features on one disc, and give you more extra features. And many people when they hear HD-DVD, they think High Definition, I know it's High Density, but for consumers, they will see that HD-DVDs and HDTVs are meant for higher quality video and sound. whereas blu-ray, unless you say blu-ray disc, they won't have a clue what the hell "a blu-ray" is, and chances are if you say blu-ray disc they'll be even more confused.

Exactly!

I said almost the exact same thing in another post.

[Arqentus]

Originally Posted by Jeet

right but if you have more space then you can have better picture quality, eg. Blu-Ray can hold like what 35 gig? the average dvd now is like 4 gigs, you can make the video quality a lot better to fill up the disc thats what i meant. you say that you can have a dvd quality movie onto several CD-Roms and not lose quality, you could have several dvd's and it could be the same quality as an HD-DVD movie

A dvd is is still 8.5GB. Your looking at dvd writeables who are for the most part still 4.5GB. The dual layer writeables are so expensive becouse nobody buys them. The dual layer ( 8.5GB ) pressed ( aka machine made are extreemly cheap ).

Also, Blu-Ray is 25GB for single layer, and 50GB for dual layer. I dont expect to see those any time soon. Just like with DVD & CD's, it took the market minimum 6 months before they started to appear ( and at that times, they cost like hell ). Think people still remember the first year that dvd movie's came out. Impossible to find a cheap one. Most of that was the expensive price of the media in that time, combined with low sale & low production amounts ( = high price's, no or low discounts for the producers ).

Expect the PS3 to a) have expensive games becouse of the single layer blu-ray they will be using ( forget to see dual layer blu-ray any time soon ). Or b) Sony & co will need to take a big hit on there profit margin to sell at the same price as the Xbox360's normal ( ultra cheap ) dvd's.

I'm betting that you can release games on 3 dvd's, and still end up cheaper, then producing the same game on a blu-ray disk. And this is going to take atleased a year, before price's drop in blu-ray enouf ( and its still a big IF, if the market accepts this new media ).

Quick sidenote: With h.264 instait of mpeg2, you can fit a 720i/p? ( 1200*780 or whatever the size is ) movie on a normal dual layer dvd. Trust me, dvd isent dead yet. They are just forcing a new standard becouse the current one is cracked. The movie studio's want people to end up buying new readers, so they can introduce there new hardware protections. It's never about the customer

[ace2cloud]

The Blu-Ray drives costs about 4 times as much as the DVD drive. Honestly, is it worth it?

[citizen X]

i for one don't care how many discs a game will take as long as its a good game.

why whould u pay $70.00 on a game just becous its in the blue-ray format

[hussain21]

Originally Posted by Arqentus

A dvd is is still 8.5GB....people to end up buying new readers, so they can introduce there new hardware protections. It's never about the customer

I defintly agree with you, and with the short life span of consoles these days MS is taking advantage of it, by the time the format war is settle, their's going to be a new xbox in near the end of development, MS offers a cheap drive, reaps the profit, and wastes no cash on risking a chance with one of the formats that may loose. Also MS asked developers what they wanted, Developers said fast read/write speeds, and that's what they got a fast DVD drive, not a slower blu-ray or HD-DVD drive.

I also agree with the shoving a new format down our throughts, we just got comfy with our DVD drives and they switch it, I personally think both blu-ray and HD-DVD will both loose to DVDs for quite a while. Consumers won't be happy with the fact that there are 2 new formats, you need 2 players to play any movie. I'm not sacrificing two things, money if the format loses, and 2, loading speed.

[TRouBLe]

Another thing is that Blue Ray just got out of the lab. ]
It isn't as stable well-known as the format we all know
Plus it's a hell lot cheaper.

[Arqentus]

I find one thing strange. The company reported to need 2 or even 3 dvd's for "Enchant Arm". I must ask myself, what the hell are they trying to put on those dvd's. If you use the ingame engine ( that is reaching fotorealistic / cgi realistic with the xbox360 ), there isent even any need for big space wasting cgi movies, and even if you use movies like that, compressed with h.264/divx/xvid, they dont take up unreal amount of space.

I for one dont get it, how they need more space. Look at Oblivion. The game is one a island the size of 16km², with full voice for all npc's, and graphics ( and very large textures ) going up to fotorealistic. In a interview they stated that they even had space to wast, and are filling it up with extra content.

Look to me that Enchant Arm's developers made a few bad choice's in there design of the game. Unless they build it in 2d, now then i can understand it, sinds 2d has a lot of redudent graphics ( just the character animations are daim big ).

On the topic of disk sizes again. I know one thing, i'm sure as hell not going to settle for anything less then full & complete compatability of whatever HD/Blu-ray standard. I got a dvd collection worth a few 1000 euro's, and i'll be daimed that i cant see it in 5 years or so, becouse they stoped making dvd's & the "victorys" standard has no red laser to save costs.

Originally, the move from VHS/Betamax etc to DVD was a good reason to upgrade your video collection. The difference was "wow". But, i dont expect to go "wow" when going from dvd to HD/Blu-ray. Higher resolution, and more "junk" on the media. I dont need no interview, on interview. I'm buying a movie for the movie, not the extras. And i suspect other people will say the same. I know one thing, it's going to take years to switch people to the next media ( unless they force people by not releasing dvd's anymore ... and thats like comiting Seppuku ).

[three-sixty]

Sony have put all their time into developing blu-ray and not alot of time into their console and you'll get alot more out of the normal DVD's if a quality machine is running it It's like comparing a car that's a bomb with high performance fuel to high performance car with a V10 engine running on normal fuel ??? I wonder which one will run better ???

[TXSPheonix]

Originally Posted by three-sixty

Sony have put all their time into developing blu-ray and not alot of time into their console and you'll get alot more out of the normal DVD's if a quality machine is running it It's like comparing a bomb with high performance fuel to normal fuel in a high performance V10 ??? I wonder which one will run better ???

what?

Really man...you just made no sense

[hussain21]

I think sony is a big enough company to manage more than one project at once. they spent too much time into pouring untested(on the consumer market) and unproven(consumer market) technology, they crammed stuff into the system that won't exist for another couple of years, for example 1080p HDTV support. Unproven technologies like the cell processor, it suposedly can do anything and is ready for the market, so where is it? Blu-Ray is another example, what if blu-ray looses both Sony's funds in the blu-ray project and money lost on making the system can't be recuparated.

[Diamond]

Originally Posted by TXSPheonix

Exactly!

I said almost the exact same thing in another post.

I saw that post!

I agree too. People will buy whatever is put in their heads that is "better."

How do you think Sony generated so many sales and fans? They used the media. Spreading their lies and propaganda... Wait, a better question. Why am I even mentioning this? Everyone knows this already.

Sorry for being such an echo~

Maybe I just wanted another post count

[Diamond]

You know, a lot of this makes perfect sence. Here are my theories to everything posted.

First, WHY I believe Sony doesn't fret over this:

Maybe Sony predicts people will buy it no matter what? Like I was saying before, and we all know. A lot of people buy it just because it's Sony. Sony seems to have found a way of putting a stardard of thinking that if you don't know what to get, you can always rely on a Sony. So most people (we aren't like most people), will want to get whatever looks good. Most people DO NOT go into forums every day, or a couple times a week, or search the net through and through for articles, quotes, statistics, specs, proof of any kind of what they're buying. That's too much work! Most people DO NOT have the state of mind, time, or even care about all that. Some people suck at research and it just plain gives them a head ache. And some people just don't have the ambition to learn about "new" technology before diving into it. It's human nature.

My theory is Sony knows this, and bases their estimates off of this. They know they've set a standard into the minds of most people into thinking you can't go wrong with a Sony, so what have you got to lose?

Second, about the new technologies:

When I first heard of Blu-Ray, I had no idea what it was or what it meant, but that's common sence, of course. So I eventually asked around. Some people told me it was a new type of compressed disc like the DVD. I thought it sounded cool. Later I found out you need a whole new player just to run it. It sounded to me like someone was trying to kill off DVDs and I hated the idea. I'm just getting comfortable with my DVD's finally. Everyone I know has finally settled with them. Some people I know are still looking to buy DVD players. It's finally set in. I remember back to the VHS days. It was hard to get into this new DVD format. But it was easier than it could be... But WHY?

It's the PROS vs CONS: DVD's didn't need to be rewound (the biggest winning plus!), they were much better quality in comparison, they were digital, and they didn't "DIE" like VHS tapes do after sitting around for years in the dust. Plus, DVD's don't take up nearly as much room as VHS tapes. BUT, one scratch and the thing is as good as garbage! The VHS tapes were hard to break.

There's many reasons DVD's easily succeeded VHS tapes once the prices went down. But right now, I still feel the same as I did when I first heard about it, except more educated. I looked it up. I did online research. I even checked out the official Blue-Ray webpage.

PROS vs CONS again?: Pros would be the fact it sounds really impressive to hold so much data. The whole thing sounds amazing from how Blue-Ray likes to put it. I like the idea of putting the whole 1st, 2nd, and 3rd season of Family guy on a single disc.

But down to the cons, which seem to currently outweigh the pros.
WE DON'T NEED this much space! When I say it's nice to hold several seasons on a single disc, I mean several seasons! A movie is NEVER this long. DVDs are finally cheap and have just enough space (and tons more, plus add in advanced compression codecs) and should last us a long time.
We don't NEED a higher quality for movies if it means taking up 5 times the space. DVD quality is good enough in my opinion. Who really needs to see the molecular structure of Nicole Kidman's far right eyelash. OK I exagerated that a little.



But beyond price and need. We simply don't need this new technology! We won't for a long long time and by that point it won't be "need" rather "want." I mean after all, who really NEEDS anything better than DVD quality?

I for one am perfectly satisfied with my DVD movies and will be for a very long time.

As for gaming? I don't need to say anything. You guys already spelled it out in the above posts! My answer for gaming is the same as that. Until we start creating games that maps out the entire planet of Earth to the exact pebble, I'll stick with my DVDs, thanks~


Sorry, I always have quite a lot to say. But I try to keep it interesting!

[FLEXKILL]

The problem everyone here is overlooking is this: You are trying to say that HD-DVD and blu-ray provide a better picture quality than regular DVD format. The only way that will occur is due to the fact that because of space limitations w/ current DVD format you can only get a maximum of 480p HI-Def. resolution for a full length movie (This is barely HI-Def!). If you were to compare that to the same pixel resolution on a HD-DVD or a Blu-ray disc, there would be no difference in picture quality strictly dependent on the type of disc. That is only determined by picture format (480i/480p/720p/1080i...) The only difference would be the ammount of information you could store (approximately 4-6 times more on HD-DVD or Blu-ray). This allows for enough room on the disc to record movies at 720 or 1080 HD resolution as apposed to a maximum of 480 on the current DVD format. This is why picture resolution can be better on these high capacity formats. You all are comparing apples to oranges. 1080i resolution is 1080i resolution whether you have the information on 1 hugh capacity disc or 4 or 5 medium capacity discs. The games will not be better because they are on blu-ray or HD-DVD, Sony will simply be able to put the same games Microsoft is forced to put on multiple discs onto one disc. On that note, Unless you have a 65" or larger screen your standard format DVD movie will Give you a perfectly fine picture. For you hardcore O.C.D. perfectionists who want to be able to count individual blades of grass when you pause your movie, get your giant screen tv or HD projector and your Blu-ray or HD-DVD and quit telling everyone else they're wrong! (not everyone has the time to count trillions of blades of cow food!)

[Jeet]

simply put more; disc space=more possible data=better picture and sound

[Arqentus]

Originally Posted by FLEXKILL

The only way that will occur is due to the fact that because of space limitations w/ current DVD format you can only get a maximum of 480p HI-Def. resolution for a full length movie (This is barely HI-Def!). If you were to compare that to the same pixel resolution on a HD-DVD or a Blu-ray disc, there would be no difference in picture quality strictly dependent on the type of disc. That is only determined by picture format (480i/480p/720p/1080i...)

Reality is, you can store more on current generation DVD's if we wanted to. We can even store 720i/720p or higher. The reason for the limitation to 480i/p on current generation systems is becouse we still use mpeg2. With a codec like h.264 thats going to be use on the next generation dvd's, if you apply it to current generation DVD-9's, it has no problem storing the movie.

Lots of space is in reality wasted on DVD-9. Movies are maybe 7GB of the 8.5GB limit. The rest is junk in most cases. Now, if you take h.264 or divx or xvid. They have about a 1/4 a 1/5 improved compression ratio vs mpeg2. Now, 480 -> 720 is a 4 fold increase in resolution. So you can widout any problem get those 720 movies on there.

Why dont the movie companys do it. Easy. Becouse of the mass availability of DVD writer, and the lack of copy protection. If you move to a new dvd format, one where there are almost no writer available, people cant copy them. Combine that with increased security by hardware security systems, plop sais the weasel

MS showed a year or 2 ago, that it was already possible to show 720i/p movies using WMV on current generation DVD-9's. And h.264 is a more advanced codec then the WMV from when they did the tests.

I know its a bit offtopic, but i liked to point this out becouse people mistakenly think that you need 15 or 25GB for 720i/p movies. You dont. You need it for 1080i/p. But, 720i/p has already hit a sweet spot. The difference in image quality is not so easy to spot between 720i/p & 1080i/p, even more when your a few feet away from your TV.

Here is some old date from the h.264 beta 3 discussion how much h.264 kan hold:

H264/WMV9 720p ~ 5 MBps
DVD5: 120 min
DVD9: 220 min

H264/WMV9 1080p ~ 9 MBps
DVD5: 70 min
DVD9: 130 min

Hope people find it intresting. Most games can also be shipped on 1 dvd. Seen several games if they stripped out the demo and other advertisment what is not gamerelated, that the game can fit on 1 dvd. Dvd's are cheap these days, so they dont bother to much anymore with getting it on one dvd.

The same apply's to the xbox360 games.

[Cybergig1]

Originally Posted by Diamond

How do you think Sony generated so many sales and fans? They used the media. Spreading their lies and propaganda... Wait, a better question. Why am I even mentioning this? Everyone knows this already.

now you know your reaching there if it were that bad people would just take the console back and say "I dont want this junk" but they like it so they keep it. Remember that the Xbox is created by one of the most universally reviled and hated corporations ever better known as microsoft. Now we wouldn't want people downing the 360 just because its made by that corporation now would we? so you might want to ease up with that analogy. Your doing your hate for no reason thing again. You just sound a bit sore because end of the day you can dog them all you want but they took a less technologically advanced system (the PS2) and sold 90 million units wordwide compared to the Xbox's 20.1 million or whatever the last count was at. People dont buy that many of something because of propoganda, fact was it had the games they wanted.

Most of what I was thinking to say Flexkill just said word for word so I'll just back up what he said

however on one point

[quote=Diamond]But down to the cons, which seem to currently outweigh the pros.
WE DON'T NEED this much space! When I say it's nice to hold several seasons on a single disc, I mean several seasons! A movie is NEVER this long. DVDs are finally cheap and have just enough space (and tons more, plus add in advanced compression codecs) and should last us a long time.
We don't NEED a higher quality for movies if it means taking up 5 times the space. DVD quality is good enough in my opinion. Who really needs to see the molecular structure of Nicole Kidman's far right eyelash. OK I exagerated that a little.
QUOTE]

Now Diamond if you had an HDTV you would understand why you need that space. It allows for movies to be uncompressed. As DVD's are NOT HD, 480p is nothing but glossied up standard def. You have to get up to 720p before you can even get it to be considered HD. And the fact is we aren't going to get that on just normal DVD's. Or if we do its on shorter movies with no extras. So while YOU may not need higher quality movies fact is most of us especially HDTV owners DO want it. Because standard tv on any hdtv looks like crap. Its got a horrible look to it and doesn't compare to hd signals. So trust me DVD is not good enough. Its far from it in a movie setting. For games I mentioned in another thread its not that big a deal. I'm just basically commenting on needing it for movie viewing.

[Heclo]

why do ppl say that: "the only advantage of HD-dvd is: higher capacity"
there is also one at least as important advantage: disc read speed.
if the speed increase is the same of that from cd to dvd, its going to be a 8 fold increase, eg. 8x cd= 1x dvd, then 8x dvd= 1x hd-dvd
so just by putting a 2x hd-dvd drive in the xbox360, it would be on par with the fastest dvd drives (16x) and if they put a 4x hd-dvd drive in it, well... twice the speed of the fastest dvd drive.

[FLEXKILL]

Originally Posted by Arqentus

Reality is, you can store more on current generation DVD's if we wanted to. We can even store 720i/720p or higher. The reason for the limitation to 480i/p on current generation systems is becouse we still use mpeg2. With a codec like h.264 thats going to be use on the next generation dvd's, if you apply it to current generation DVD-9's, it has no problem storing the movie.

Lots of space is in reality wasted on DVD-9. Movies are maybe 7GB of the 8.5GB limit. The rest is junk in most cases. Now, if you take h.264 or divx or xvid. They have about a 1/4 a 1/5 improved compression ratio vs mpeg2. Now, 480 -> 720 is a 4 fold increase in resolution. So you can widout any problem get those 720 movies on there.

Why dont the movie companys do it. Easy. Becouse of the mass availability of DVD writer, and the lack of copy protection. If you move to a new dvd format, one where there are almost no writer available, people cant copy them. Combine that with increased security by hardware security systems, plop sais the weasel