How important is system bandwidth

[RSFlux]

Originally Posted by pApA SmerF01

Shaun, you should know that Sony has a lot of debt and has lost a lot of money every other division but the playstation one. it wouldn't be financially feasable for them to put out a console that costs $500 to build for $300. That's a $200 loss on every console sold. multiply that by, oh let's say, 10 million. Do you really think that SCE can take that huge of a hit? No. They're going to sell between $450-$550.

While I admit a $300 PS3 is nearly impossible, a $399 one isn't. I'm not saying it's likely, but with the disk drive still not decided upon, no hard drive, and a later (and probably non-worldwide) release, Sony has some options for reducing the cost of their system. Not to metion that Sony *loves* to earn money off of peripherals instead of the core system. Also, it may be the case that Sony's partners in the cell processor have money invested in the PS3 venture other than just research, allowing for a cheaper console and a quicker proliferation of their new platform.

In short, I'm sure Sony realizes that releasing a "heaftier" system at the same price as the 360 would do massive damage to the 360's selling potential. While this isn't in line with their statements on the subject, who knows what their plans for the future are. It's always unwise to rule out a possibility just because there's a little evidence to the contrary.

On the other hand, a $599 release of the PS3 would almost criple the system in the states. With a huge number of players being kids, students, or other limited income people, coming out with a system twice as much as the (still pricey) alternative would be a horrible mistake. I don't expect to see the PS3 sell for any more than $499, assuming a bare bones package.

~Flux

[RSFlux]

Originally Posted by shaun

okay here it is

BTW, shaun, not a bad article, but it left me wanting some sort of closure. I don't feel like I gained anything from reading it, or you made any sort of strong point. Perhaps you should focus the article on something, even if the focus is that there isn't a winner yet (but say how there can be!). Try to leave the reader with something he didn't come in with, otherwise you're just relaying stats.

~Flux

[Nomino]

Sure, system bandwidth is important, but what if XBox 360 has £10 notes flowing through it and the PS3 has £50 notes flowing through it. Yes, the NUMBER of units flowing through is 5x less on PS3, but the overal value is the same.

I'm just thinking that maybe what flows through the PS3s pipeline is more efficient and therefore it doesn't need such a huge pipe? I'm totally non-techy though, so go easy!

[pApA SmerF01]

Originally Posted by Nomino

Sure, system bandwidth is important, but what if XBox 360 has £10 notes flowing through it and the PS3 has £50 notes flowing through it. Yes, the NUMBER of units flowing through is 5x less on PS3, but the overal value is the same.

I'm just thinking that maybe what flows through the PS3s pipeline is more efficient and therefore it doesn't need such a huge pipe? I'm totally non-techy though, so go easy!

not really. it needs a larger cache of bandwidth, even if it's point-to-point. There's just too much information to move with such a low amount.

[Jeet]

Originally Posted by shaun

.. my bad on december, i meant november, thanks for the catch ..

I wouldn't say that sony NEEDS anything right now, look at the current market share.

Sony dwarfs microsoft when it comes to consoles.
6 months is nothing.

Sony had considered originally pushing the PS3 back, but the only reason I could see them doing that is to bring the console's price down, which I don't see as being that serious. Microsoft releasing a 399 console was a definate plus for Sony, that means that instead of selling at 299, they can do 399 and not lose near as much money.

I'm banking on a $300 PS3 though, I think Sony has enough money to sell at that, and if they release at $300, they'll murder XBox360's sales, even with a 6 month lead. You all know this.

i honestly dont think that Sony is willing to lose $200 on every PS3 made

[citizen X]

Originally Posted by Jeet

i honestly dont think that Sony is willing to lose $200 on every PS3 made

My thoughts exactly

[shaun]

You guys can talk about who can afford it and who can't. Microsoft has a huge market cap, approximately 300 billion, Sony caps at approx 35 billion.

If these are correct, then Sony will lose roughly 1.5 billion on sales in the first year. That's not a big deal. Microsoft lost a ****load, near a billion in the first year of the XBox, and the same with the PS2, it lost more than half a billion.

Everyone knows console makers lose money in the first few years. Sony has been the leader in consoles for years, I know this is an XBox forum, and I'm not being a fanboy, just stating facts.

Look at market shares of Sony vs Microsoft in the console market, even considering XBox live. Sony can afford it fine, and will.

I have sources close to Sony that state a 299 launch is likely, the MOST it will be is 399.

Console makers have to decide HOW MUCH they want to lose in the first year, that's all. They will lose money no matter what. It's an issue of product.

Sales, revenues and money will be left up to developers. If the XBox360 is easy to develop on, and lots more great games come out on it, it will sell well, but the PS3's saving grace is backwards compatibility ALL THE WAY back to PS1, not selectively.

I have no problem with people believing that either console is better, but don't call me a fanboy and make it sound like I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I'm simply sharing FACTS and OPINIONS I have. That's what forums are for, FACTS and OPINIONS.

If you can't prove your point without calling names, then don't bother trying to prove a point.

Thanks

[citizen X]

Your right, forums are for facts and opinions.

I know for a fact that Sony said, at their own conference that the PS3 will be expensive. Why would they say some like that when their price is going to be the same as the x360?

Sure they can change their mind and sell it cheaper but I just want proof of that.

I don’t think Sony will sell it for 399.99. the new (cell) CPU is very new, and as all of us knows, any new hardware is always very expensive. Plus their putting all that extra stuff like 7 controllers and I don’t know how many USB 2.0 ports and any thing u can think of. And u cant for get the new Blue ray format. All that stuff adds up and selling it for 399.99, looks to be just too big of a loss for every console Sony sells.

[daniel.isaac.h]

Ok, Shaun buddy you've taken a lot of flak... I admire that you are here gathering facts... Every side has it's story, Xbox360 has a rather convincing one, so does Sony.

I've heard from my sources [MAS Inc, Vast Inc, and Matrix Dist. (All of which have direct contact with Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft)] that the PS3 will be $599.

Now, do I believe them? No, not exactly. Although they told us that 360 would be in two bundles back in June, and there accurate prices/release date... Same with the PSP. I will not go as far to assume anything on the PS3...

If, the PS3 were released tomorrow there would be no doubt in my mind that it would be at least $599. But they do have quite a few options at hand with a later release date. Mass Production is Sony's best friend/foe... They have quite the power when it comes to the good ole assembly line. Let's just hope they don't repeat history like the defunked PS1, PS2, and PSTwo (slim model). I won't get into the hassle that Sony put me through with the PSTwo... For 3 months they were defective... They never went public with it either! 80% defective. I counted as they came in... One by one the customers came in to ***** at me. I had to send them to Sony after 31 days! You can imagine the hell I had to go through with that. Seeing that I manage this store. Grrr...

Now, Microsoft is not innocent... Seeing that 1 out of 1,000 Xboxes released before October 23rd, 2003 had the possibility of the power cord heating up after 12 hours of gameplay. M$ didn't hide it. They went public, sent thousands of power cord replacement for free! No Shipping!

Ok, I just had my M$ is God moment. lol.

Seriously though... If the PS3 releases in Q2 of 2006 it could mean a higher priced PS3... All I can say is that if it is, I'm sure you will get a lot of "I told you so's" from here. Including me. If it is postponed to 2007 or Q4 of 2006 I will totally agree with you! And you and I will give out a ton of "I told you so's".

In all honesty, I trust my distributors when they say that the 360 is coming out on the 15th... Do I tell the customers that? No, I can't risk my profession with assumptions... I do tell them the 100% proof truth. When they ask me how much the PS3 is gonna be... I just tell them I dunno. I've found that people like the facts. Opinions turn people off.

I enjoyed reading your article. The fact is that the PS3 will have better specs. No way around that! System bandwidth is a big thing... but the CELL processor is a totally new item! Who really knows how much bandwidth it will need to utilize it correctly?

The problem is, Sony will lose it's steam with developers this time around... The term exclusive title is slowly fading away. It will take developers at least 3-4 years to utilize 70% of the hardware capabilities in my observation. By then M$ might have a new Xbox.

The truth is...

We will see.

[shaun]

My sources will beat your sources up!

No, but really. You make a few good points. I emailed one of my sources today after I read this post, and got an interesting tidbit of information -

If Sony releases the PS3 at its expected time (~March 2006), at 299, they will lose (approximately) 1.5 BILLION dollars. That's a hefty loss, but imagine, I belive it's a smart marketing move. Make Microsoft feel comfortable with a 400 dollar console, then release a 300 dollar console.

Think about it guys.

I'm not taking sides at all, and really, I couldn't care less, as I'll obviously own both consoles... But when you compare the two, Sony has history in consoles.

And just an FYI, Xenon actually costs more than Cell to make. XBox360 will have add-in support for either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD at the point when the dominant medium takes the lead... And really, manufacturing prices don't matter. .. I've said this (i believe) three times now, Manufacturers lose a ****load of money in the first few years, but they make it up later.

When you compare the two - Sony has a library of games stretching all the way back to the PS1, Microsoft has a limited library of games (as it is), and even moreso limited by the backwards compatibility.

XBox live will be great for sales, but one product does not a great company make. Microsoft will have to pull out all the stops in their 6 month lead, everyone said the PSP would flop, it's too expensive, it's too this, it's too that, all the Ninentdo ***boys... erm, fanboys, sorry, said that the DS would murder the PSP's sales.

Let me check numbers here, let's see, in its first month the PSP outsold the DS year to date... In its first launch in Europe it broke every handheld record as far as sales (DS sold 85,000 at launch, PSP sold 185,000).

Don't doubt Sony. I don't want to sound like a fanboy, but look at the entire playing field. Both companies have a huge backing, and have some strong ammunition, but really... Don't chalk it up to one company.

Both consoles will sell, and they'll sell alot.

My sources say $300, yours say $600. One of ours is full of ****.

I'm betting on $300-$400.

[daniel.isaac.h]

1. Who are your "sources"? Cuz mine will kick their butt too. lol. :P

2... Don't call anyone a *** while on this forum. That pissed me off.

3... I too will own both consoles! Both systems have there great selling points...

4... Please entail... I am willing to admit when I am wrong... Just please tell me how Sony will do this...

[shaun]

I would tell you my sources, but then they'd have to kill you.

Cmon, Nintendo fanboys deserve no less

Sony will do it the same way they do everything. Sony has massive producing power. Even though Microsoft has more money, Sony's just tricky like that.

I'm just spewing what I've heard. As you said, my sources could be wrong and so could yours. But a $600 console doesn't make sense to me...

[Heclo]

lets get something clear: the xbox360 does not have a higher main memory bandwith than the ps3, and u cant just add up all the memory bandwith's of a system and say: "this is the systems total memory performance"

the xbox360 has 512MB of GDDR3 memory running at 700Mhz, producing a bandwith of 22.4GB/s
it then has a graphics "cache" of 10MB EDRAM producing 256GB/s
this smallsize memory will mainly be used to store shaderoperations, frametables ect. NOT textures, which is the data that takes up most memory, and bandwith, they will be stored in the main memory, which have a bandwith of 22.4GB/s as i stated before.

the ps3 has 256MB of XDR ram running synchronized with the cell eg. 3.2Ghz, though on the high clock speed, sony states that it only produces a bandwith of 25.6GB/s
it then haves 256MB GDDR3 ram running at 700Mhz which produces (you've guessed it already ) 22.4GB/s, as dedicated video ram. this mean's it will be used as storage for texture, shader, vertex and other operations.

all this add's up to, that the xbox360 will have a slight advantage over ps3 bandwith wise, because of its capability of almost instant shader/vertex operations, but only slight advantage, i think about 10-15%

and before you flame me to death, research my claims, they are taken directly from ms/sony statements

EDIT: all this said i still think xbox360 is going to be the best console, because of its more traditional architekture, maybe in 5 years from now, when we sum up all the games from each console, the ps3 might have the most beautiful game of all the games, but the xbox360 will have a higher number of beautiful games (did that make sense?)

[seTclock]

even if the impossible happens and sony prices the PS3 at $299 to undercut Msoft, who in their right mind thinks that Msoft will KEEP the premium system at $399?? coming out at least 6 months later in No way helps sony with price point... Msoft will have the established base to absorb the loss of matching sonys lower price

i can actually see the Opposite happening.. sony releases the PS3 Q2 2006 at $349+ and Msoft dropping the 360 to $299 premium and $249 core (or PS3 at $399 and 360 premium at $349)
i dont think theres a great chance of this because some consumers think that you get what you pay for and Msoft might not want their product to be thought of as the "cheaper product", but I must reitterate that i Dont see msoft not matching sony if sony decides to have a price war

[pApA SmerF01]

Originally Posted by Heclo

lets get something clear: the xbox360 does not have a higher main memory bandwith than the ps3, and u cant just add up all the memory bandwith's of a system and say: "this is the systems total memory performance"

the xbox360 has 512MB of GDDR3 memory running at 700Mhz, producing a bandwith of 22.4GB/s
it then has a graphics "cache" of 10MB EDRAM producing 256GB/s
this smallsize memory will mainly be used to store shaderoperations, frametables ect. NOT textures, which is the data that takes up most memory, and bandwith, they will be stored in the main memory, which have a bandwith of 22.4GB/s as i stated before.

the ps3 has 256MB of XDR ram running synchronized with the cell eg. 3.2Ghz, though on the high clock speed, sony states that it only produces a bandwith of 25.6GB/s
it then haves 256MB GDDR3 ram running at 700Mhz which produces (you've guessed it already ) 22.4GB/s, as dedicated video ram. this mean's it will be used as storage for texture, shader, vertex and other operations.

all this add's up to, that the xbox360 will have a slight advantage over ps3 bandwith wise, because of its capability of almost instant shader/vertex operations, but only slight advantage, i think about 10-15%

and before you flame me to death, research my claims, they are taken directly from ms/sony statements

EDIT: all this said i still think xbox360 is going to be the best console, because of its more traditional architekture, maybe in 5 years from now, when we sum up all the games from each console, the ps3 might have the most beautiful game of all the games, but the xbox360 will have a higher number of beautiful games (did that make sense?)

Wait, let's get something clear here first. You said in the first sentence that the Xbox360 does NOT have a higher main memory bandwidth than ps3, then near the end, you say it has a slight advantage bandwidth-wise.

Which is it?

[TRouBLe]

Xbox360 is NOT a 400buck console.
It's a 300bucks console. 300$ is the main system without HDD.
PS3 is roumored to be 500$ or something like that. Without the HDD.
So even if PS3 comes @ 400$ 360 is 100$ cheaper.
I have read this opinion at an article here at planetxbox360.com

[Romper Stomper]

If they are losing billions of dollars why do they bother making consoles?

[TRouBLe]

Becasuse later on the make profits (huge profits)
Don't forget that the lifetime of a console is 4-5 years