Xbox360 vs PS3: Fair and Balanced

[Jeff]

Here's an unbiased comparison from someone who loves his 720P capable Xbox and cant believe some of the ridiculous hype coming out of both camps such as Sony's simply absurd 2 Trilliion flops or Microsofts hilarious bandwidth claims.

Hardware threads
Xbox360: 4.5 (each pair of threads compete for execution resources)
PS3: 8.5 (one double threaded core + 7 single threaded cores)

CPU Floating point (32 bit) based on IBM test data
Xbox360: 76.8 Billion/sec
PS3: 204.8 Billion/sec

CPU Integer (32 bit) based on IBM test data
Xbox360: 76.8 Billion/sec
PS3: 115.2 Billion/sec

CPU cache
Xbox360: 1024kb
PS3: 2,304kb

System bandwidth:
Xbox360: 22.4 GB/s
PS3: 48 GB/s

Main memory efficiency ([cycles-latency]/cycles)
Xbox360: 79% (700mhz GDDR3)
PS3: 94% (3,200Mhz XDR)

GPU Programmable Floating Point Operations
Xbox360: 240 Billion/sec
PS3: 308 Billion/sec

So its clear where the power advantage lies.

Now there have been repeated claims on this forum that the Xbox360 has some magical 256GB/s bandwidth that can be added to system memory bandwidth. This is just plain ridiculous.

1) The real bandwidth from the GPU to the eDRAM daughter card is 32GB/s.

2) The data traveling via the 32GB/s is only partially compressed (Z-data) but without color compression SSAA is out of the question. This means Xbox360 games are stuck with the inferior MSAA method of anti-aliasing which is really a sort of glorified hack as far as FSAA goes.

3) The 256GB/s number frequently quoted is internal to the eDRAM unit does not in any way help out with system bandwidth. If you add that to the system RAM you might as well add the 307GB/s of the CELL (that connects all the different processors) to the PS3 system bandwidth number. Internal bandwidth is internal and only marketing morons would add it to system bandwidth. System bandwidth is the speed at which the system can access memory and that is 22.4GB/s for the Xbox360 and 48GB/s for the PS3.

4) The 10MB eDRAM frame-buffer of the Xbox360 is too small to contain a single 720P frame with even 2x MSAA, let alone 4x MSAA. This is why the release titles of the Xbox360 render at less than 720P and simple stretch it to fit 720P TVs. PGR3, for example, renders at what would approximately be 600P).

5) Rendering at true HD is a nightmare for developers. Because of the small frame-buffer, in order to render at 720P with 2x or 4x AA the developers must use a process called "tiling", which requires each frame to be rendered in little pieces (tiles), then each tile is saved to main memory, then all the tiles are stitched together to form the full frame. On the Xbox360, this leads to a huge performance hit which under ideal circumstances is about 5% hit on the GPU and 20% on the system as a whole. This is probably why most developers have decided to simply render at non-HD resolutions (like PGR3) and stretch the frame to fit HD screens (like the PS2 does with GT4 1080i) instead of using tiling and actually rendering at true HD.

6) As for anyone having doubts about the bandwidth of the PS3, they should consider that the original Xbox has only 6.4GB/s of total memory and had no problem rendering at 720P. Do they seriously think the PS3 with 48GB/s of total bandwidth will have the slightest problem rendering at 720P? Did they forget the GPU in the PS3 is designed by the same people who designed the one in the original Xbox? Give me a break!

Don't get me wrong. The Xbox360 is a fine machine as was my Xbox but in terms of hardware capability its not really in the same class as the PS3. However I strongly believe that software and gameplay that will determine the winner, not hardware, so this means that unless PS3 can come up with something to compete with Halo3, DOA4, etc, its going to have some problems.

[ChuckSteak0331]

wow. welcome to the Late Club. The only way to get the hard facts is to talk directly to the people that make the system. Cause according to your numbers, they are way off to BOTH web page numbers. (xbox and sony's webpage) so screw that, just enjoy the system.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by ChuckSteak0331

wow. welcome to the Late Club. The only way to get the hard facts is to talk directly to the people that make the system. Cause according to your numbers, they are way off to BOTH web page numbers. (xbox and sony's webpage) so screw that, just enjoy the system.

The only way to get meaningless marketing hype is by talking to Sony and Microsoft directly.

[Leostorm]

Hi i was thinking that both systems have their difference in power. Yes the Playstation 3 is more powerful than the xbox 360 but for the game makers is going to be more difficult to make games for it. While the x-box 360 is more simple to make games. One other advantage that the Playstation 3 has over the Xbox-360 is the Blu-ray which can hold more data and can display more thanks to the Nvidia RSX GPU processor. Either way am getting both systems because of exclusives games that will appear for each system. One more thing the X-box 360 looks fantastic way to go Microsoft.

[FordGTGuy]

Originally Posted by Jeff

The only way to get meaningless marketing hype is by talking to Sony and Microsoft directly.

untrue Sony is the one who always overhypes and MS gives what they said they would unless something happens to stop it.

*warning made by experts* read this "warning made by experts*

http://www.majornelson.com/2005/05/2...s3-part-1-of-4

[Leostorm]

Originally Posted by FordGTGuy

untrue Sony is the one who always overhypes and MS gives what they said they would unless something happens to stop it.

*warning made by experts* read this "warning made by experts*

http://www.majornelson.com/2005/05/2...s3-part-1-of-4

I appreciate the link it really explains the facts. Thanks again...

[Zrolimit]

Originally Posted by Jeff

Did they forget the GPU in the PS3 is designed by the same people who designed the one in the original Xbox? Give me a break!

I think we all remember that NVidia did the GPU for the XBOX and that later their company was dropped due to the fact that they had agreed with Sony to design their next generation GPU for the PS3. NVidia makes great products and all, but when compared to the performance and reliabilty of ATI's newer generation chipsets, the NVidia products have been met with skepticism, plaguing problems (heat and power required to use) and performance specs (lower framerates at higher resolutions when compared to ATI). Of course I'm talking from a PC perspective and the new GPU chipsets in the XBOX 360 and PS3 are on a different level. I can only hope that NVidia has taken a different step in designing their products and finally have something that can outperform what ATI has done for the 360. But I wouldn't put my money on it.

[bentout]

No offense - none of those numbers mean S@&t! Look at the Nintendo DS and the PSP. The PSP is far and away more powerful, has many more media features, and superior graphics - but, the DS is still out selling the PSP two to one!

The bottom line is great games and online service!

Most users who read those numbers have no idea what they mean nor how they are applied! Unless you are a programmer/engineer that has in depth knowledge of both processors, developing and writing code for multi core die, and extensive experience with both SDKs what your stating is only opinion and speculation.

It's funny how everyone wants to say which machine has more horse power when most developers have already expressed that the potential of both systems will be explored for the next several years! Not to mention the hardware is useless unless the developer knows how to use it!

Everyone just needs to relax and realize that both systems are great achivements in technology and gaming. In the end we the gamers benefit and are in a win win situation!!!

[duvalcounty1690]

Originally Posted by bentout

No offense - none of those numbers mean S@&t! Look at the Nintendo DS and the PSP. The PSP is far and away more powerful, has many more media features, and superior graphics - but, the DS is still out selling the PSP two to one!

The bottom line is great games and online service!

Most users who read those numbers have no idea what they mean nor how they are applied! Unless you are a programmer/engineer that has in depth knowledge of both processors, developing and writing code for multi core die, and extensive experience with both SDKs what your stating is only opinion and speculation.

It's funny how every wants to state which machine has more horse power when most developers have already stated that the potential of both systems will be explored for the next several years! Not to mention the hardware is useless unless the developer knows how to use it!

Everyone just needs to relax and realize that both systems are great achivements in technology and gaming. In the end we the gamers benefit and are in a win win situation!!!

Very perfect way to put it.Like your point makes alot of sense.

[bentout]

Thanks for the Kudos

[stuntman101]

Originally Posted by Jeff

Here's an unbiased comparison from someone who loves his 720P capable Xbox and cant believe some of the ridiculous hype coming out of both camps such as Sony's simply absurd 2 Trilliion flops or Microsofts hilarious bandwidth claims.

Hardware threads
Xbox360: 4.5 (each pair of threads compete for execution resources)
PS3: 8.5 (one double threaded core + 7 single threaded cores)

CPU Floating point (32 bit) based on IBM test data
Xbox360: 76.8 Billion/sec
PS3: 204.8 Billion/sec

CPU Integer (32 bit) based on IBM test data
Xbox360: 76.8 Billion/sec
PS3: 115.2 Billion/sec

CPU cache
Xbox360: 1024kb
PS3: 2,304kb

System bandwidth:
Xbox360: 22.4 GB/s
PS3: 48 GB/s

Main memory efficiency ([cycles-latency]/cycles)
Xbox360: 79% (700mhz GDDR3)
PS3: 94% (3,200Mhz XDR)

GPU Programmable Floating Point Operations
Xbox360: 240 Billion/sec
PS3: 308 Billion/sec

So its clear where the power advantage lies.

Now there have been repeated claims on this forum that the Xbox360 has some magical 256GB/s bandwidth that can be added to system memory bandwidth. This is just plain ridiculous.

1) The real bandwidth from the GPU to the eDRAM daughter card is 32GB/s.

2) The data traveling via the 32GB/s is only partially compressed (Z-data) but without color compression SSAA is out of the question. This means Xbox360 games are stuck with the inferior MSAA method of anti-aliasing which is really a sort of glorified hack as far as FSAA goes.

3) The 256GB/s number frequently quoted is internal to the eDRAM unit does not in any way help out with system bandwidth. If you add that to the system RAM you might as well add the 307GB/s of the CELL (that connects all the different processors) to the PS3 system bandwidth number. Internal bandwidth is internal and only marketing morons would add it to system bandwidth. System bandwidth is the speed at which the system can access memory and that is 22.4GB/s for the Xbox360 and 48GB/s for the PS3.

4) The 10MB eDRAM frame-buffer of the Xbox360 is too small to contain a single 720P frame with even 2x MSAA, let alone 4x MSAA. This is why the release titles of the Xbox360 render at less than 720P and simple stretch it to fit 720P TVs. PGR3, for example, renders at what would approximately be 600P).

5) Rendering at true HD is a nightmare for developers. Because of the small frame-buffer, in order to render at 720P with 2x or 4x AA the developers must use a process called "tiling", which requires each frame to be rendered in little pieces (tiles), then each tile is saved to main memory, then all the tiles are stitched together to form the full frame. On the Xbox360, this leads to a huge performance hit which under ideal circumstances is about 5% hit on the GPU and 20% on the system as a whole. This is probably why most developers have decided to simply render at non-HD resolutions (like PGR3) and stretch the frame to fit HD screens (like the PS2 does with GT4 1080i) instead of using tiling and actually rendering at true HD.

6) As for anyone having doubts about the bandwidth of the PS3, they should consider that the original Xbox has only 6.4GB/s of total memory and had no problem rendering at 720P. Do they seriously think the PS3 with 48GB/s of total bandwidth will have the slightest problem rendering at 720P? Did they forget the GPU in the PS3 is designed by the same people who designed the one in the original Xbox? Give me a break!

Don't get me wrong. The Xbox360 is a fine machine as was my Xbox but in terms of hardware capability its not really in the same class as the PS3. However I strongly believe that software and gameplay that will determine the winner, not hardware, so this means that unless PS3 can come up with something to compete with Halo3, DOA4, etc, its going to have some problems.

WOW DUDE.. thats harsh.. why come to an XBOX FORUM.. and pratically diss the 360.. what you have posted is fake... you must be a sony fanboy

[three-sixty]

Fanboys fanboys wat u gunna do, wat u gunna do, when they come for u

[DeadOneWalking]

Ok, by all practical means the PS3 will be more powerful. Just slightly to the 360. The problem is that the Cell processor will be too difficult to program for. The CPU design is extremely tuned for specific utilization code. Therefore, it's less appealing to developers. The 360 on the other hand, even with only having 3 cores, is much easier to program for and has some major kick with just one core! That makes it attractive to developers on multiple levels, the big shots (Sega and EA for example) and the smaller people who make arcade games.
In the end, I think the 360 will win. But, if the PS3 has enough fellowship, it can easily stay in the race. The only way to really know is to wait for it to be released later this year.

How’s that for fair!

[Gamerkid360]

Originally Posted by bentout

No offense - none of those numbers mean S@&t! Look at the Nintendo DS and the PSP. The PSP is far and away more powerful, has many more media features, and superior graphics - but, the DS is still out selling the PSP two to one!

The bottom line is great games and online service!

Most users who read those numbers have no idea what they mean nor how they are applied! Unless you are a programmer/engineer that has in depth knowledge of both processors, developing and writing code for multi core die, and extensive experience with both SDKs what your stating is only opinion and speculation.

It's funny how everyone wants to say which machine has more horse power when most developers have already expressed that the potential of both systems will be explored for the next several years! Not to mention the hardware is useless unless the developer knows how to use it!

Everyone just needs to relax and realize that both systems are great achivements in technology and gaming. In the end we the gamers benefit and are in a win win situation!!!

Very well put, it is easier to understand. And it's true......

[ezekillu]

numbers blumberz!!! look at gears of war!!! ill wait ,but lets see sony beat that!!!!!!!

[Shotty]

Wow the sony fanboys have managed to find this site and post some pathetic info so they can feel some superiority. Those facts are bull. I remember reading somewhere that for the other system calculations, which is the teraflop value, microsoft was like 1Teraflop for the cpu while sony posted a value of 2 Teraflops for the ps3 which was later discoved that sony actually posted total calculations of the cpu and gpu combined which was why that value was higher. These sony fanboys have no logic and believe every thing uncle ken tells them. The reason why 360 has less cache that the ps3 is because the 360 uses embedded memory (a.k.a smart memory) which takes in most of the video data and performs the Anti-aliaisng and the others tricks. While the the ps3 some of the spe have to be used for anti-aliasing therefore taking a performance hit.

[Grindstone]

And yet, the screen shots we have seen thus far convince us otherwise to the superiority of the PS3. All those higher numbers are not adding up to improved games. True, 8 more months until the launch. So we shall see.

I feel these numbers generated by Jeff are misleading as well. Unfortunately, I am not the best person to detract from them...

[General Tso]

Where are the Nintendo fanboys. You never hear them argue. Seems like Sony fans need an outlet to vent their frustration. In their narrow minds, they never thought the 360 could be so good. But I have bad news for the 360 bashers, the best is yet to come. For example Gears of War, Blue Dragon, Oblivion, and lets not forget some game called Halo 3.

[psuedohippy]

WOW, those were a bunch of posts that I just dont understand. I guess that is why I like console gameing and not computer gaming as much.

What I do understand is that I am going to go home tonight and play more GR:AW and 2k6 and FN3 and that sony dork is gonna go home and read about more PS3 delays lol. Dont get me wrong, I will probably have the PS3 also but I sure cant have it right now.

[DeathDealer]

man i keep forgetting how Microsoft showed what they had let people play there demos and ran it on the real system not a empty box with CGI movies running off a computer, talk to me when they let us play the system..