Study: Is DVD9 Big Enough?

Justin Buser · 19-01-2006, 10:18 PM

There has been much debate over Microsoft's choice to opt for the DVD9 format, as opposed to including an HD-DVD (or Blu-Ray for that matter) drive with the Xbox 360 out of the box. While an external HD-DVD drive is expected for the console later this year, it won't be used for games. So is DVD-9 really big enough?

GamesFirst conducted a study comparing the average size of Xbox 360 games versus the average size of Xbox games. The results are reproduced below:

Xbox 360 Games (only 4 available)

Condemned: 3.9 GB
Madden 06 NFL: 3.3 GB
Dead or Alive 4: 5 GB
NBA 06: 4.5 GB

Average: 4.18 GB

Xbox Games

2001 Average: 1.81 GB
2002 Average: 2.17 GB
2003 Average: 2.47 GB
2005 Average: 3.20 GB

Quote:

Over the course of its life, the size of the average Xbox title increased by 56%. If the Xbox 360 size increases at the same rate, and the four 360 titles are representative of the whole, we can expect the average Xbox 360 title in 4 or 5 years to be around 6.39 gigs, and to occupy about 75% of the disc's capacity. If the largest game deviation is the same as the Xbox, with the largest game being 3 gigabytes larger than the 2005 average, then some games will be pushing the upper limit of what the medium is capable of.

Read the full article here

Jay2984 · 19-01-2006, 11:34 PM

Cool, I had no idea 360 games already took that much space on the disk compared to later xbox1 games. What is the max capacity a DVD-9 disk will hold?

citizen X · 19-01-2006, 11:59 PM

i think its some where around 9.4 GB i could be wrong

Xtrm Liability · 20-01-2006, 12:45 AM

I’m not an expert in programming or anything but I believe there will be a much more rapid growth rate in next generation game capacity due to multi-thread hardware/software design. From what I’ve been hearing, game developers have hardly tapped into the full potential of what the 360 is capable of. I think I recall the developers for Oblivion complaining about disk space a while back but even so, if I’m too lazy to get off my @$$ after a good 9 plus hours of gameplay and switch the disk, then there is something seriously wrong.

Jay2984 · 20-01-2006, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xtrm Liability

I’m not an expert in programming or anything but I believe there will be a much more rapid growth rate in next generation game capacity due to multi-thread hardware/software design. From what I’ve been hearing, game developers have hardly tapped into the full potential of what the 360 is capable of. I think I recall the developers for Oblivion complaining about disk space a while back but even so, if I’m too lazy to get off my @$$ after a good 9 plus hours of gameplay and switch the disk, then there is something seriously wrong.

Thats exactly what I think, if the game is good and I really enjoy it I dont mind to get up and change a disk. Last time i checked I wasnt that lazy, theres going to be some great games that come out for the 360 that are going to be a couple disks, who knows we could see 3 or 4 by the time the 360 is towards the end of its life.

DeadOneWalking · 20-01-2006, 01:42 AM

Now when you look at the study, you see that through the Xbox’s life the average game size didn't even fully double! Therefore, it's possible and most likely that the games for the 360 will max out at 2 disks, at most leaving most games running with 1 disk STILL using the DVD9 format that holds 8.5GB. Therefore, IMO, logically MS did the right thing by staying with the DVD5/9 format this time, even though they could have waited and done HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

FordGTGuy · 20-01-2006, 06:08 AM

you guys forgot about MS's compression software. In TD:U the island by itself is 9gig thats not including all the cars, parts, online capabilities, menus, cutscenes, houses, bikes, and etc.

Dragonuk · 20-01-2006, 07:29 AM

lets just hope it is not just full of movies but game improvements and more online game play

mega_hertz_99 · 20-01-2006, 09:02 AM

I heard that the HD-DVD (drives (and Sony-Ray) weren't really fast enough to allow for good clean streaming which was part of the reason MS opted for DVD-9. I'm sure cost was a pretty big factor too. I'd still pick up the HD drive when it comes out anyway because they may be saying it's only for movies now, but who knows?

icspeedracer · 20-01-2006, 09:25 AM

i think they space they have will be okay with most games that come out for the first few years... with their compression schemes they can make gameplay graphics stuff fit fine. the space really only becomes and issue (as far as i can think on this issue) when it comes to putting HD video in the game for cutscenes. It just takes up soo much space and i think that'll either limit what games are put on the system versus the PS3 and Blu-ray or make the games multi disk. As other people point out i think it does really come out from the J developers that are heavy CG game makers. I for one like the CG and don't wnat it to leave. In game graphics are getting better, but they are nowhere close to the cg level of realistics nor should it be expected to this geenration. Also i wonder about the comments above about the games becomming multi threaded and that adding a lot of space - i'm not a programmer, but how much more space are we talking?

Xtrm Liability · 20-01-2006, 11:39 AM

Dead or Alive 4: 5 GB

Wow that really shocks the hell out of me. I thought for sure DOA4 would max out the disk capacity because of all the HD cinimatic cut sceens and game endings. I mean, there was a lot to that game.

QuantuM · 20-01-2006, 11:48 AM

DVD9 burned is 8.4, DVD9 pressed is 9.4

VictoryOverWar · 20-01-2006, 02:25 PM

well if a game like oblivion will be on 1 disk im not too worried

FordGTGuy · 20-01-2006, 02:59 PM

Doom 3: 5.67g - HalfLife 2: 2gigs

--------

Halflife 2 has bigger enviroemnts and maybe an increase in graphics.

DeadOneWalking · 20-01-2006, 03:17 PM

Yes, but they are also looking at the best compression vs. performance. That can be done on a gaming system because they all will operate the same. Now, what would happen if they decided to see how small they could get it with out causing too much of a load time? Well, on the PC Doom3 took up just under 5GB when fully un-compressed. (I had the game) But, it came compressed, at under 2GB and that's where everyone started. Even when the things were un-compressed, the game still called on the compressed files to verify they were OK. Therefore, there was no point in de-compressing the files on a PC making the used game files at about 2.3GB with saves. To make it work better on the Xbox, they un-compressed all the files and added enhancements for the system. With HL2, all they did was have texture mapping so it used the same picture over and over to save space as well as compressed the data. Not needed, but that's what was done. The DVD9 format should NOT have a problem holding the data, simply because of having a 3 core processor with all cores having duel-processing/hyper-threading. That allows some major decompression speeds! As I said before, the worst thing that will happen is most likely a 2 disk game, at the end of the 360's life.

360rulz · 20-01-2006, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay2984

Cool, I had no idea 360 games already took that much space on the disk compared to later xbox1 games. What is the max capacity a DVD-9 disk will hold?

9 gig(ish)

FordGTGuy · 20-01-2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1031982

Yes, but they are also looking at the best compression vs. performance. That can be done on a gaming system because they all will operate the same. Now, what would happen if they decided to see how small they could get it with out causing too much of a load time? Well, on the PC Doom3 took up just under 5GB when fully un-compressed. (I had the game) But, it came compressed, at under 2GB and that's where everyone started. Even when the things were un-compressed, the game still called on the compressed files to verify they were OK. Therefore, there was no point in de-compressing the files on a PC making the used game files at about 2.3GB with saves. To make it work better on the Xbox, they un-compressed all the files and added enhancements for the system. With HL2, all they did was have texture mapping so it used the same picture over and over to save space as well as compressed the data. Not needed, but that's what was done. The DVD9 format should NOT have a problem holding the data, simply because of having a 3 core processor with all cores having duel-processing/hyper-threading. That allows some major decompression speeds! As I said before, the worst thing that will happen is most likely a 2 disk game, at the end of the 360's life.

go read the other thread i just created.

skbriot22 · 21-01-2006, 09:50 AM

As far as optimizing space for games later in the 360's life it seems microsoft has done quite a bit according to the article by Gamesfirst. Procedural synthesis and the XNA software both combine to produce high quality games graphics with the space on DVD9's in a short amount of time. It seems the equation works out to breaking even though as the time gained through the easy-to-use XNA development tools is absorbed by optimizing code through Procedural Synthesis.

To all the tech savy posters i'd like to hear your thoughts on this point, do u think this is the other reason for sticking with the DVD9 format as opposed to it being cost-effective?

Grindstone · 26-01-2006, 05:09 PM

Perhaps something we have overlooked in this thread is that it costs money to make big games. Seriously, a 5gig games costs over $10 million dollars to produce. So the likelihood of a game developer making a huge game with over 9gigs is rather unlikely for a while until software is good enough to make a 5gig game less expensive (see: porcedural synthesis).

Aside from that, in my opinion, going with the 12x DVD drive in the 360 was a better idea for a number of reasons:

1. It was cheaper for the total price of the console,

2. Load times would be quicker (the PS3 is rumored to have a 2x speed read, or ~25% slower that 12x dvd),

3. It was a safe bet for the consumers as no one is totally sure which format war will win (between Blu-ray and HD-dvd),

4. Considering the average growth of games, it did not seem that the Dvd-9 space would be eclipsed anytime soon,

5. With the dev. tools MSoft has given with the 360 dev kits, compression ratio is improved and games are also easier to produce (Ibid. proc. synth.)

True, we may see 2 disc games near the end of the console's life, but I really am not too concerned about it. If I have one disc for SP, and another for MP, I am not going to cry myself to sleep at night because I have to get up and swap discs. I'm not that lazy... yet.

On the other hand, I see the Blu-ray disc capacity as a necessity for the PS3, as the Cell chip is a real biyatch to program for, so the Blu-ray allows for the developers to be more sloppy with their code and not worry about disc space.